Look at Ray Ray Run Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 16 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Who is celebrating Edgar Quero’s -0.1 fWAR? Did you read the first page of the thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 (edited) I just never understood how we could get excited about a position player group on pace for zero WAR. Last year the Sox were the only team in baseball to not have positive war. In the past twenty years only one other team had 0 or negative WAR (tigers) and the Sox are on pace to do it back to back years. It being an improvement over last year doesnt actually mean its a bright spot. Also, the idea that a lot of the negative guys are gone doesnt make it any better. They're being replaced by guys who weren't good enough to beat them out lol Edit: here's a really funny stat, the Sox 4th and 5th best FIP on their pitching staff were position players who pitched 1 inning. Edited June 28 by Look at Ray Ray Run 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 23 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: I just never understood how we could get excited about a position player group on pace for zero WAR. Last year the Sox were the only team in baseball to not have positive war. In the past twenty years only one other team had 0 or negative WAR (tigers) and the Sox are on pace to do it back to back years. It being an improvement over last year doesnt actually mean its a bright spot. Also, the idea that a lot of the negative guys are gone doesnt make it any better. They're being replaced by guys who weren't good enough to beat them out lol Edit: here's a really funny stat, the Sox 4th and 5th best FIP on their pitching staff were position players who pitched 1 inning. Lol…context certainly matters when assessing the performance of a team. As you have noted many times, the team last year was historically bad with few building blocks and since then our owner has further gutted the payroll. I’m not sure what your expectations were for this season, but this team was going to be incredibly bad again from a W-L perspective in pretty much any scenario. As such, “success” really comes down to winning on the margins rather than being a non-terrible club. Young players showing some signs of life is by far the most important outcome this year and we have seen a decent sized group of kids that look like legitimate pieces even if most of them lack star upside. Regardless, it’s just a first step in a long-term process but ultimately a necessary one to get back to even normal bad. Veterans performing at or above expectations is a lesser but still important objective. I think the reality is Robert has flopped hard which will hurt quite a bit come the deadline. None of the other vets really have the ability to move the needle much in terms of return, but I am pleased with some of Getz’s dumpster dive pickups as they have been more productive than what we typically got from his predecessor and is hopefully a sign of the progress made behind the scenes. Finally, watching Venable and his coaching staff not completely implode in the wake of another tough season is a positive. It appears that the players actually respect him and as bad as things have been we haven’t really seen guys quit like they did under Grifol last year. Ultimately, none of this should qualify as “exciting” because we are still multiple years away from being mediocre, but objectively speaking it’s been an ok 1st half if you contextualize your expectations. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said: but I am pleased with some of Getz’s dumpster dive pickups as they have been more productive than what we typically got from his predecessor and is hopefully a sign of the progress made behind the scenes. The dumpster dives: Capra (negative fWAR), Palacios (negative fWAR), Amaya (negative fWAR), Taylor (negative fWAR), Noda (negative fWAR), Maton (negative fWAR), Jankowski (negative fWAR), Austin Slater (.1 fWAR), Dalbec (.1 fWAR), Tauchmann (.7 fWAR), Thaiss (.7 fWAR). Not seeing it myself. Edited June 28 by chitownsportsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 26 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said: The dumpster dives: Capra (negative fWAR), Palacios (negative fWAR), Amaya (negative fWAR), Taylor (negative fWAR), Noda (negative fWAR), Maton (negative fWAR), Jankowski (negative fWAR), Austin Slater (.1 fWAR), Dalbec (.1 fWAR), Tauchmann (.7 fWAR), Thaiss (.7 fWAR). Not seeing it myself. Many of the guys you list weren’t planned additions, but rather waiver wire fodder to fill out a roster. IMO, Tauchman, Slater, & Thaiss have all delivered as cheap veteran placeholders. Taylor is at 0.3 fWAR although I wouldn’t really consider that as a win. Rojas has flopped pretty hard and should be included in your list above. Three of out of five scrap heap signings more or less working is about as good as any GM is going to do and is much better than anything we have seen under Hahn. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 I’m sorry but Robert turning into a completely worthless trade chip outweighs any positives from the first half. He was the last “big” piece to help accelerate the rebuild process but no longer the case. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 9 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: I’m sorry but Robert turning into a completely worthless trade chip outweighs any positives from the first half. He was the last “big” piece to help accelerate the rebuild process but no longer the case. There's only positives relative to historical awfulness, we're 30th in fWAR for position players at ZERO. Only the Rockies are worse at -2.3. We're 23rd in pitching fWAR at 4.7. So we are 4.7 wins above replacement at basically the half way point. I'll be generous and assuming we finish with 10 fWAR as a team at the end mark. That's about 35 fWAR away from being a team that can compete for a playoff spot. 35. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said: Lol…context certainly matters when assessing the performance of a team. As you have noted many times, the team last year was historically bad with few building blocks and since then our owner has further gutted the payroll. I’m not sure what your expectations were for this season, but this team was going to be incredibly bad again from a W-L perspective in pretty much any scenario. As such, “success” really comes down to winning on the margins rather than being a non-terrible club. Young players showing some signs of life is by far the most important outcome this year and we have seen a decent sized group of kids that look like legitimate pieces even if most of them lack star upside. Regardless, it’s just a first step in a long-term process but ultimately a necessary one to get back to even normal bad. Veterans performing at or above expectations is a lesser but still important objective. I think the reality is Robert has flopped hard which will hurt quite a bit come the deadline. None of the other vets really have the ability to move the needle much in terms of return, but I am pleased with some of Getz’s dumpster dive pickups as they have been more productive than what we typically got from his predecessor and is hopefully a sign of the progress made behind the scenes. Finally, watching Venable and his coaching staff not completely implode in the wake of another tough season is a positive. It appears that the players actually respect him and as bad as things have been we haven’t really seen guys quit like they did under Grifol last year. Ultimately, none of this should qualify as “exciting” because we are still multiple years away from being mediocre, but objectively speaking it’s been an ok 1st half if you contextualize your expectations. So here’s my issue with this: there were some young positional players named earlier in this thread that are positives but are they positives just cause we can’t write them off as busts yet? Like Vargas had one great month and has been super meh again, I like Meidroth but he’s been extremely ok, Teel has been ok. Like, I guess it’s cool cause they don’t suck yet but there’s not a young positional player on the roster that I’m sure is a starter going forward. Just the positivity for some of these guys cause they don’t absolutely suck yet seems odd. But baby steps I guess or something. Edited June 28 by Rowand44 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted June 28 Author Share Posted June 28 3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said: Bad…yes. Another 100+ season? Way to say that with any level of certainty. Fair point but I'm basing my assumption on JR telling Getz to unload Roberts and Beni at some point, and keep cutting the payroll because of the upcoming labor uncertainty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 40 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Many of the guys you list weren’t planned additions, but rather waiver wire fodder to fill out a roster. IMO, Tauchman, Slater, & Thaiss have all delivered as cheap veteran placeholders. Taylor is at 0.3 fWAR although I wouldn’t really consider that as a win. Rojas has flopped pretty hard and should be included in your list above. Three of out of five scrap heap signings more or less working is about as good as any GM is going to do and is much better than anything we have seen under Hahn. Thaiss was traded for a guy that has a 566 ops. How is turning that signing into nothing a win? Slater has been terrible. We're calling guys worth about a half war over a full season of games wins now? I just feel like you've dropped your barometer so low. Tauchman has been the only plus acqusition. You're giving out A's for D work right now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 14 minutes ago, Rowand44 said: So here’s my issue with this: there were some young positional players named earlier in this thread that are positives but are they positives just cause we can’t write them off as busts yet? Like Vargas had one great month and has been super meh again, I like Meidroth but he’s been extremely ok, Teel has been ok. Like, I guess it’s cool cause they don’t suck yet but there’s not a young positional player on the roster that I’m sure is a starter going forward. Just the positivity for some of these guys cause they don’t absolutely suck yet seems odd. But baby steps I guess or something. I have read the Vargas has been bad the past month, but since June 1st he has put up a 10% BB rate, 14% K rate, and a .174 ISO. His hard hit rate is 44% during this frame and yet his BABIP is only at .243. Based on those peripherals, I will believe he’s been unlucky more than bad. Teel has a 119 wRC+ as a rookie catcher despite his xwOBA being 45 points higher than wOBA. Meidroth has been close to a league average hitter based on the skill set he was advertised as having and has shown enough at SS to look like he could stick there if need be. Regardless, he should continue to improve with time. Sosa has flashed being a decent 2B option on the cheap. The latter two guys won’t be stars, but having 1.5 to 2.5 win players is needed to go from terrible to average. And on the pitching side, Smith has been a tremendous pickup and Burke has flashed a ton over the past month to believe he can be a rotation mainstay. I’d add that Taylor has shown to have a hell of arm and will be an impact player in some capacity, whether that’s in relief or eventually as a starter. There are couple of other young guys like Martin & Vasil that have pitched well, but the peripherals don’t look great so won’t count them as wins just yet. By no means should anyone be doing cartwheels over these “wins”, but during the second half of Hahn’s tenure we had very few young players perform even close to these levels outside of the elite prospects acquired at the front end of the rebuild. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 24 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Thaiss was traded for a guy that has a 566 ops. How is turning that signing into nothing a win? Slater has been terrible. We're calling guys worth about a half war over a full season of games wins now? I just feel like you've dropped your barometer so low. Tauchman has been the only plus acqusition. You're giving out A's for D work right now. Not in a million years did anyone expect Thaiss to be moved for anything of value. He was simply brought in to buy some time for Teel & Quero without being a total disaster. The fact he performed as well as he did should be viewed as a scouting win vs. a trade shortfall. I do wish we got more for him, but the right call was to sell for what you could and call up the blue chip prospect. As for Slater, he has a .351 xwOBA (50 points higher than his wOBA) and strong quality of contact metrics. As a weak side platoon player, he has been the victim of bad batted ball luck. Doesn’t change the fact that he offers a good bat against LHP and appears to be worth his measly salary. As I have pointed out numerous times, he is blocking no one of importance and there is some value in having veterans who offer professional at-bats and improve the floor of the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 1 hour ago, Rowand44 said: So here’s my issue with this: there were some young positional players named earlier in this thread that are positives but are they positives just cause we can’t write them off as busts yet? Like Vargas had one great month and has been super meh again, I like Meidroth but he’s been extremely ok, Teel has been ok. Like, I guess it’s cool cause they don’t suck yet but there’s not a young positional player on the roster that I’m sure is a starter going forward. Just the positivity for some of these guys cause they don’t absolutely suck yet seems odd. But baby steps I guess or something. Yeah outside of a possible Teel/Quero platoon, I’m not seeing anyone on offense that would be in a title contending lineup. Meidroth and Quero are far too slappy, IMO. Given the pitching struggles in the minors, I wouldn’t say this has been a good developmental year at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: I’m sorry but Robert turning into a completely worthless trade chip outweighs any positives from the first half. He was the last “big” piece to help accelerate the rebuild process but no longer the case. That's the mental illness of trade frenzy. Somehow this process is going to override the long history of failed drafting and developing. We like to return to that pit of vomit with high hopes. Look at other long lasting losing organizations they do the same thing. Any success is also short lived. Winning and losing are habits in pro sports. I have not faith in the rebuild of the rebuild rebuild. It's like trusting a seamstress to overhaul your engine. This biggest challenge is to erase the toxicity of this organization. Who knows how long that will take. I guess that's why you trade for prospects since their goal is to play in the big leagues. No real veteran would ever come here to be a White Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 35 minutes ago, fathom said: Yeah outside of a possible Teel/Quero platoon, I’m not seeing anyone on offense that would be in a title contending lineup. Meidroth and Quero are far too slappy, IMO. Given the pitching struggles in the minors, I wouldn’t say this has been a good developmental year at all. That's why you need stud OF were two guys will get you 30hr. That future is quite bleak so that means they hopefully have another Crochet in the works to fill those holes. They also have to be guys that can catch a baseball and no Eloys. As for veterans they would have to overpay for them to be part of this organization. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted June 28 Author Share Posted June 28 45 minutes ago, kitekrazy said: That's the mental illness of trade frenzy. Somehow this process is going to override the long history of failed drafting and developing. We like to return to that pit of vomit with high hopes. Look at other long lasting losing organizations they do the same thing. Any success is also short lived. Winning and losing are habits in pro sports. I have not faith in the rebuild of the rebuild rebuild. It's like trusting a seamstress to overhaul your engine. This biggest challenge is to erase the toxicity of this organization. Who knows how long that will take. I guess that's why you trade for prospects since their goal is to play in the big leagues. No real veteran would ever come here to be a White Sox. Wise words in this post. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 1 hour ago, fathom said: Yeah outside of a possible Teel/Quero platoon, I’m not seeing anyone on offense that would be in a title contending lineup. Meidroth and Quero are far too slappy, IMO. Given the pitching struggles in the minors, I wouldn’t say this has been a good developmental year at all. Pitching I get having some optimism about, but offensively we improved from worst of all time to just historically bad, and a lot of it was from guys who are 1 year stop gaps anyway, and have zero trade value. Slater and Tauchman putting up a little over league average numbers does nothing for the future of this franchise. Maybe you can squint and see league average out of a couple of young guys, maybe a little better from Teel. That still leaves us finding 7/8 hitters in the next few year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zisk Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 2 hours ago, fathom said: Yeah outside of a possible Teel/Quero platoon, I’m not seeing anyone on offense that would be in a title contending lineup. Meidroth and Quero are far too slappy, IMO. Given the pitching struggles in the minors, I wouldn’t say this has been a good developmental year at all. mOSTLY AGREE. mUST SAY teel/quero could be an excellent platoon covering 2 positions. DH and catcher. That is a huge advantage over almost every team. Just get some OFers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 20 minutes ago, zisk said: mOSTLY AGREE. mUST SAY teel/quero could be an excellent platoon covering 2 positions. DH and catcher. That is a huge advantage over almost every team. Just get some OFers. No way IMO they slug enough to cover both Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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