Lip Man 1 Posted July 22 Author Share Posted July 22 3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said: Economist? I would think they would want a forensic accountant. I was going off of what was agreed upon during the 1994-95 impasse. He was a Stanford economist but your comment would work as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77 Hitmen Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 Here's an article from March that takes a look at two teams (Pirates and Twins) that are losing money and one team (Braves) that is making money. One key factor discussed is the local TV revenue and how it's declined significantly for the 2 money-losing teams in the article. And the $595 revenue total for the Braves doesn't include revenue from the entertainment district by their stadium, which pushed their revenue up to $662M according to the separate article linked in this one. https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/what-the-pirates-twins-finances-reveal-about-mlbs-revenue-divide/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 12 minutes ago, 77 Hitmen said: Here's an article from March that takes a look at two teams (Pirates and Twins) that are losing money and one team (Braves) that is making money. One key factor discussed is the local TV revenue and how it's declined significantly for the 2 money-losing teams in the article. And the $595 revenue total for the Braves doesn't include revenue from the entertainment district by their stadium, which pushed their revenue up to $662M according to the separate article linked in this one. https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/what-the-pirates-twins-finances-reveal-about-mlbs-revenue-divide/ Perfect excuse for a lockout. Forget that franchise values are the real value of their ownership and not yearly operating profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77 Hitmen Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 (edited) 17 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said: Perfect excuse for a lockout. Forget that franchise values are the real value of their ownership and not yearly operating profit. Franchise value is mentioned in the article. One problem with looking at franchise value is that it's not a liquid asset. It'll enrich the owners or their families when the franchise is sold, but until then it doesn't cover operating expenses. Edited July 25 by 77 Hitmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeC Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 Would be great to have team ownership stock options as a form of athlete compensation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 27 minutes ago, JoeC said: Would be great to have team ownership stock options as a form of athlete compensation. I do not believe that is allowed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77 Hitmen Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 Bryce Harper reportedly had a spirited exchange with Manfred during a Q&A session the commissioner had with the Phillies: https://www.chicagotribune.com/2025/07/28/bryce-harper-confronts-rob-manfred/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted July 28 Author Share Posted July 28 2 hours ago, 77 Hitmen said: Bryce Harper reportedly had a spirited exchange with Manfred during a Q&A session the commissioner had with the Phillies: https://www.chicagotribune.com/2025/07/28/bryce-harper-confronts-rob-manfred/ "Get the f--- out of our clubhouse" Harper told Manfred if he Manfred wanted to talk about the potential implementation of a salary cap, sources told ESPN on Monday." Anyone who doesn't think this is going to come to a head quickly next year needs to confront reality. The MLBPA will NEVER accept a salary cap and if the owners want to go down that road yet again they are delusional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted July 28 Author Share Posted July 28 https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/45842533/sources-phillies-bryce-harper-tells-mlb-boss-get-clubhouse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 4 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said: "Get the f--- out of our clubhouse" Harper told Manfred if he Manfred wanted to talk about the potential implementation of a salary cap, sources told ESPN on Monday." Anyone who doesn't think this is going to come to a head quickly next year needs to confront reality. The MLBPA will NEVER accept a salary cap and if the owners want to go down that road yet again they are delusional. We'll see. The middle of the road players may over rule the elite. The elite dont always speak for the whole union. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 17 hours ago, 77 Hitmen said: Bryce Harper reportedly had a spirited exchange with Manfred during a Q&A session the commissioner had with the Phillies: https://www.chicagotribune.com/2025/07/28/bryce-harper-confronts-rob-manfred/ Good. This isn't a player problem, it's an ownership problem. It's going to get ugly, but I hope the players stick to their guns. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 30 minutes ago, Tony said: Good. This isn't a player problem, it's an ownership problem. It's going to get ugly, but I hope the players stick to their guns. You prefer no salary cap and the worst parity amongst all major sports? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: You prefer no salary cap and the worst parity amongst all major sports? Players should not have their salaries artificially suppressed because owners don't want to spend. In the last decade, the Royals and Nationals have won a World Series, the Indians have been to a World Series, as have the Rays and Diamondbacks. The best record in baseball, today, is held by the Milwaukee Brewers, who have the 23rd highest payroll in the league. Spendings the most doesn't equal an automatic World Series Championship. It certainly helps, but there are plenty of ways to successfully build a team. But if a salary cap going into affect is from ownership groups saying they can't compete with other teams in their own league...then get the f*** out and let someone in who wants to compete. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 15 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: You prefer no salary cap and the worst parity amongst all major sports? Many seem to. All in the name of sticking it to the owners. Very much a divide of union against ownership regardless of the effect on the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 8 minutes ago, Tony said: Players should not have their salaries artificially suppressed because owners don't want to spend. In the last decade, the Royals and Nationals have won a World Series, the Indians have been to a World Series, as have the Rays and Diamondbacks. The best record in baseball, today, is held by the Milwaukee Brewers, who have the 23rd highest payroll in the league. Spendings the most doesn't equal an automatic World Series Championship. It certainly helps, but there are plenty of ways to successfully build a team. But if a salary cap going into affect is from ownership groups saying they can't compete with other teams in their own league...then get the f*** out and let someone in who wants to compete. Salaries artificially suppressed? The current arbitration system artificially raises salary with no ability for the arbiter to find a middle ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 10 minutes ago, ptatc said: Salaries artificially suppressed? The current arbitration system artificially raises salary with no ability for the arbiter to find a middle ground. Are you going to argue that a imposing a salary cap doesn't ultimately suppress what players can earn? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 23 minutes ago, ptatc said: Salaries artificially suppressed? The current arbitration system artificially raises salary with no ability for the arbiter to find a middle ground. It is also the step in breaking a system at which ownership has full control over a player for six seasons, which they get to manipulate for a 7th, paying them a paltry percentage of their open market wage, so yes. Even if a few guys make "more" the majority still make a lot less than they could. Remember the entire pricing structure built into arbitration is to afix a smaller than 100% percentage to what they would be making on the open market, compared to what their similar piers are making at these reduced tiers. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77 Hitmen Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 45 minutes ago, Tony said: Players should not have their salaries artificially suppressed because owners don't want to spend. In the last decade, the Royals and Nationals have won a World Series, the Indians have been to a World Series, as have the Rays and Diamondbacks. The best record in baseball, today, is held by the Milwaukee Brewers, who have the 23rd highest payroll in the league. Spendings the most doesn't equal an automatic World Series Championship. It certainly helps, but there are plenty of ways to successfully build a team. But if a salary cap going into affect is from ownership groups saying they can't compete with other teams in their own league...then get the f*** out and let someone in who wants to compete. I partially agree. Yes, it's an owners problem and a salary cap isn't going to fix that, but there's no denying that there's a revenue problem with some teams having a payroll of over $300M and other teams hundreds of millions of dollars in debt, including the White Sox. And while some teams have staggering amounts of debt ($450M for the Twins), the Braves are bringing in something like $600M in revenue from all their income streams (including their baseball village). Washington and Arizona aren't small market teams. The DC area is the 7th largest metro area in the US and the Phoenix area is 10th and growing. The Royals WS title was 10 years ago, the last small market team to win a WS. And yes, there are small market teams like Milwaukee, Tampa Bay and Cleveland that perpetually seem to be in the playoff hunt. But at least the latter two always have to start over again every couple of years as their good players move on to big markets. Overall, I'm probably with the players on this. The owners are all billionaires and many benefit from having taxpayer funded stadiums gifted to them. So, you're not wrong. But that doesn't mean that the economics of MLB isn't getting out of hand. The owners are going to have to clean up their own house instead of looking to imposing a salary cap on the players as a "solution". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted July 29 Author Share Posted July 29 45 minutes ago, 77 Hitmen said: I partially agree. Yes, it's an owners problem and a salary cap isn't going to fix that, but there's no denying that there's a revenue problem with some teams having a payroll of over $300M and other teams hundreds of millions of dollars in debt, including the White Sox. And while some teams have staggering amounts of debt ($450M for the Twins), the Braves are bringing in something like $600M in revenue from all their income streams (including their baseball village). Washington and Arizona aren't small market teams. The DC area is the 7th largest metro area in the US and the Phoenix area is 10th and growing. The Royals WS title was 10 years ago, the last small market team to win a WS. And yes, there are small market teams like Milwaukee, Tampa Bay and Cleveland that perpetually seem to be in the playoff hunt. But at least the latter two always have to start over again every couple of years as their good players move on to big markets. Overall, I'm probably with the players on this. The owners are all billionaires and many benefit from having taxpayer funded stadiums gifted to them. So, you're not wrong. But that doesn't mean that the economics of MLB isn't getting out of hand. The owners are going to have to clean up their own house instead of looking to imposing a salary cap on the players as a "solution". And we know what the chances of that happening are don't we? 😆 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 1 hour ago, 77 Hitmen said: I partially agree. Yes, it's an owners problem and a salary cap isn't going to fix that, but there's no denying that there's a revenue problem with some teams having a payroll of over $300M and other teams hundreds of millions of dollars in debt, including the White Sox. And while some teams have staggering amounts of debt ($450M for the Twins), the Braves are bringing in something like $600M in revenue from all their income streams (including their baseball village). Washington and Arizona aren't small market teams. The DC area is the 7th largest metro area in the US and the Phoenix area is 10th and growing. The Royals WS title was 10 years ago, the last small market team to win a WS. And yes, there are small market teams like Milwaukee, Tampa Bay and Cleveland that perpetually seem to be in the playoff hunt. But at least the latter two always have to start over again every couple of years as their good players move on to big markets. Overall, I'm probably with the players on this. The owners are all billionaires and many benefit from having taxpayer funded stadiums gifted to them. So, you're not wrong. But that doesn't mean that the economics of MLB isn't getting out of hand. The owners are going to have to clean up their own house instead of looking to imposing a salary cap on the players as a "solution". To be clear, I don't think everything is perfect, and I'm as guilty as anyone of getting incredibly annoyed when were watching our phones in November and every alert seems to be the Dodgers signing another free agent. That's not great for the game and I'd like to find a solution on that. But even in your reply here, you referenced the Nats and Arizona as not being "small market teams" and cited their metro area ranks. Where do the White Sox fall on that ranking list? Why does a team in the third largest metro market act like a small market team? There are problems that need to be fixed. I don't believe a salary cap solves those issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 10 minutes ago, Tony said: To be clear, I don't think everything is perfect, and I'm as guilty as anyone of getting incredibly annoyed when were watching our phones in November and every alert seems to be the Dodgers signing another free agent. That's not great for the game and I'd like to find a solution on that. But even in your reply here, you referenced the Nats and Arizona as not being "small market teams" and cited their metro area ranks. Where do the White Sox fall on that ranking list? Why does a team in the third largest metro market act like a small market team? There are problems that need to be fixed. I don't believe a salary cap solves those issues. This is exactly why if there is to be cap, there needs to be a significant floor and revenue sharing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77 Hitmen Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said: And we know what the chances of that happening are don't we? 😆 Two options: - Slim - None Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77 Hitmen Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 (edited) 2 hours ago, Tony said: To be clear, I don't think everything is perfect, and I'm as guilty as anyone of getting incredibly annoyed when were watching our phones in November and every alert seems to be the Dodgers signing another free agent. That's not great for the game and I'd like to find a solution on that. But even in your reply here, you referenced the Nats and Arizona as not being "small market teams" and cited their metro area ranks. Where do the White Sox fall on that ranking list? Why does a team in the third largest metro market act like a small market team? There are problems that need to be fixed. I don't believe a salary cap solves those issues. That's an excellent question for Jerry Reinsdorf. It's a self-fulling prophecy IMO. For a long time, he's run this franchise like it's a small market team and he's pretty much reaped what he sowed with market share. We can only hope that Ishbia can bust us out of this "small market" mindset when he takes control. Interestingly, I just looked up all the World Series champs since the Marlins won in 2003. It's almost all major market teams for 21 seasons. I didn't realize it was so lopsided. The only exceptions were the 2006 and 2011 Cardinals (medium market) and the 2015 Royals (definitely small market). Plus the 2019 Nats, where it can be argued they're more of a medium market team than major market. Otherwise, it's all NY, Chicago, LA, Bay Area, Boston, Texas teams (those are HUGE markets), and Atlanta (once) for over 2 decades. I'd definitely consider the Braves a major market team - they own the entire South outside of Florida and have a huge regional following from their WTBS years. They're a financial powerhouse. Market size does matter. And I agree with you that a salary cap doesn't solve those issues. Look at what happened when they imposed a luxury tax and revenue sharing for smaller market teams. Teams like the Pirates just pocketed those competitive balance subsidies instead of pouring it back into the team and John Fisher drove the A's out of Oakland into nomad status for the next few years. Edited July 29 by 77 Hitmen Forgot the 2006 Cardinals! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted July 29 Author Share Posted July 29 18 minutes ago, 77 Hitmen said: That's an excellent question for Jerry Reinsdorf. It's a self-fulling prophecy IMO. For a long time, he's run this franchise like it's a small market team and he's pretty much reaped what he sowed with market share. We can only hope that Ishbia can bust us out of this "small market" mindset when he takes control. Interestingly, I just looked up all the World Series champs since the Marlins won in 2003. It's almost all major market teams for 21 seasons. I didn't realize it was so lopsided. The only exceptions were the 2011 Cardinals (medium market) and the 2015 Royals (definitely small market). Plus the 2019 Nats, where it can be argued they're more of a medium market team than major market. Otherwise, it's all NY, Chicago, LA, Bay Area, Boston, Texas teams (those are HUGE markets), and Atlanta (once) for over 2 decades. I'd definitely consider the Braves a major market team - they own the entire South outside of Florida and have a huge regional following from their WTBS years. They're a financial powerhouse. Market size does matter. And I agree with you that a salary cap doesn't solve those issues. Look at what happened when they imposed a luxury tax and revenue sharing for smaller market teams. Teams like the Pirates just pocketed those competitive balance subsidies instead of pouring it back into the team and John Fisher drove the A's out of Oakland into nomad status for the next few years. Pirates weren't the only team doing that, Jeffrey Loria did the same thing with the Expos and then the Marlins. Owners want the players to solve their problems as Donald Fehr said back in the 94-95 time period. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 3 hours ago, Tony said: Players should not have their salaries artificially suppressed because owners don't want to spend. In the last decade, the Royals and Nationals have won a World Series, the Indians have been to a World Series, as have the Rays and Diamondbacks. The best record in baseball, today, is held by the Milwaukee Brewers, who have the 23rd highest payroll in the league. Spendings the most doesn't equal an automatic World Series Championship. It certainly helps, but there are plenty of ways to successfully build a team. But if a salary cap going into affect is from ownership groups saying they can't compete with other teams in their own league...then get the f*** out and let someone in who wants to compete. The answer is a salary cap and a floor like every other sport. This current model is 100% broken and terrible even if some small market teams can be successful for stretches of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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