6 minutes ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

I forget the timeline at this point but I think the start was the clown show recruitment of Bryce Harper and then hiring Machado's friends and relatives hoping that would get him here on the cheap. Then the final nail was not hiring AJ.

Jay and Alonso...and losing out to Tatis Jr. and a free spending owner.

Harper the bigger need with Moncada and especially the pr/media credibility boost he gave Philly.

Then finally losing Wheeler and eventually settling for Keuchel...last remaining free agent in that top tier and struggled already with ATL.

Edited 2 hours ago2 hr by caulfield12

2 minutes ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

I forget the timeline at this point but I think the start was the clown show recruitment of Bryce Harper and then hiring Machado's friends and relatives hoping that would get him here on the cheap. Then the final nail was not hiring AJ.

If I could Sox time travel, this is the fork in the road I would love to explore.

-Bring in one (or hell both for that price) of those guys and see if it reduces the pressure on the other guys to play through injuries. Maybe better If they don't play through injuries, do the Moncada/Eloy/TA/Jimenez group not peak as fast and start to lose their abilities and skills? You are also looking at a deeper line up, more protection, with more insulation against injuries if they do happen, etc.

-Maybe instead of rushing Crochet up as a reliever, they take time with him and get him up a couple of years later as a starter.

-Maybe instead of Ricky being fired, who the guys obviously loved and gelled under, maybe he gets more time to figure out how to go from point B to C with them. Even if they do fire him, do they let Rick do his own thing instead of Jerry's thing, because the team is closer, and there is more trust of Hahn instead of Jerry feeling like he has to insert himself?

-Could Jerry be more likely to walk away under his own time if the franchise doesn't turn into an MLB laughing stock?

-Do they come to terms with a Lucas Giolito instead of pissing him away over $50k because the money means less at that point?

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

If I could Sox time travel, this is the fork in the road I would love to explore.

-Bring in one (or hell both for that price) of those guys and see if it reduces the pressure on the other guys to play through injuries. Maybe better If they don't play through injuries, do the Moncada/Eloy/TA/Jimenez group not peak as fast and start to lose their abilities and skills? You are also looking at a deeper line up, more protection, with more insulation against injuries if they do happen, etc.

-Maybe instead of rushing Crochet up as a reliever, they take time with him and get him up a couple of years later as a starter.

-Maybe instead of Ricky being fired, who the guys obviously loved and gelled under, maybe he gets more time to figure out how to go from point B to C with them. Even if they do fire him, do they let Rick do his own thing instead of Jerry's thing, because the team is closer, and there is more trust of Hahn instead of Jerry feeling like he has to insert himself?

-Could Jerry be more likely to walk away under his own time if the franchise doesn't turn into an MLB laughing stock?

-Do they come to terms with a Lucas Giolito instead of pissing him away over $50k because the money means less at that point?

Giolito too diminished by injuries to be a key factor IMO.

10 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

If I could Sox time travel, this is the fork in the road I would love to explore.

-Bring in one (or hell both for that price) of those guys and see if it reduces the pressure on the other guys to play through injuries. Maybe better If they don't play through injuries, do the Moncada/Eloy/TA/Jimenez group not peak as fast and start to lose their abilities and skills? You are also looking at a deeper line up, more protection, with more insulation against injuries if they do happen, etc.

-Maybe instead of rushing Crochet up as a reliever, they take time with him and get him up a couple of years later as a starter.

-Maybe instead of Ricky being fired, who the guys obviously loved and gelled under, maybe he gets more time to figure out how to go from point B to C with them. Even if they do fire him, do they let Rick do his own thing instead of Jerry's thing, because the team is closer, and there is more trust of Hahn instead of Jerry feeling like he has to insert himself?

-Could Jerry be more likely to walk away under his own time if the franchise doesn't turn into an MLB laughing stock?

-Do they come to terms with a Lucas Giolito instead of pissing him away over $50k because the money means less at that point?

I think Renteria not getting another MLB job tells you what you need to know about him. Firing him wasn't the problem, it was bringing TLR back instead of Hinch. Though I wonder about Hinch - Tigers absolutely collapsed down the stretch last year and started off really poorly this year, though they've turned it around recently.

We pretty much all thought rushing Crochet up was a bad idea. Same with Vaughn. Treating Crochet like they're treating Hagen Smith and Noah Schultz would've been a much better idea. Imagine if he came up in 2023 or 2024 instead of burning 2 (or 3? dunno how the TJS year factors) years of control for basically nothing. Vaughn maybe would still suck but there was no reason to rush him up, especially after COVID killing the minors for a year.

I've been beating the "not signing Harper was the biggest mistake the Sox made during their 'window'" since he signed with the Phillies and I stand by that. It was the first sign of impending doom.

I would take everything Jerry says publicly or "publicly" with a giant grain of salt.

Giolito is still holding out now and is basically wasting a year of his career and earning potential. Not sure there's anything any team could do that wouldn't piss off a guy like that. I get he thinks hes not getting what he's worth but dude MLB is TELLING you you're not worth what you want. Take a prove it contract and stop making terrible decisions.

For me it all started with hiring Robin, which kinda set the course to where we are today. Winning is not a priority.

1 hour ago, almagest said:

I think Renteria not getting another MLB job tells you what you need to know about him. Firing him wasn't the problem, it was bringing TLR back instead of Hinch. Though I wonder about Hinch - Tigers absolutely collapsed down the stretch last year and started off really poorly this year, though they've turned it around recently.

We pretty much all thought rushing Crochet up was a bad idea. Same with Vaughn. Treating Crochet like they're treating Hagen Smith and Noah Schultz would've been a much better idea. Imagine if he came up in 2023 or 2024 instead of burning 2 (or 3? dunno how the TJS year factors) years of control for basically nothing. Vaughn maybe would still suck but there was no reason to rush him up, especially after COVID killing the minors for a year.

I've been beating the "not signing Harper was the biggest mistake the Sox made during their 'window'" since he signed with the Phillies and I stand by that. It was the first sign of impending doom.

I would take everything Jerry says publicly or "publicly" with a giant grain of salt.

Giolito is still holding out now and is basically wasting a year of his career and earning potential. Not sure there's anything any team could do that wouldn't piss off a guy like that. I get he thinks hes not getting what he's worth but dude MLB is TELLING you you're not worth what you want. Take a prove it contract and stop making terrible decisions.

obviously all are different points along the timeline, and none of them were that crazy in the moment, but it's also possible they do the "right" thing and still fail too.

I just fell pretty confident by getting some of those bigger things right, we don't bottom out as the worst of all time.

21 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

obviously all are different points along the timeline, and none of them were that crazy in the moment, but it's also possible they do the "right" thing and still fail too.

I just fell pretty confident by getting some of those bigger things right, we don't bottom out as the worst of all time.

For sure. Trading Semien and Bassitt plus Tatis for basically nothing should also factor in this timeline. The Sox were trying to build sustained success with no LATAM or Asian pipeline, no top end free agents, and little help coming from their drafts. It's not surprising just trading for a bunch of top prospects and doing the bare minimum everywhere else wasn't sustainable, and ended up bottoming out as the worst team of all time.

The entire organization has just gotten used to and accepted losing. When is the last time you saw a player show even the slightest frustration? No one is breaking a bat or throwing anything in the dugout, not that it would improve things but hey at least show that you hate losing.

I don't see any kind of quick fix either. There is very little young talent in the farm system. And if you have an owner that isn't going to spend it is pretty hopeless until that owner is gone and then hopefully the new one will spend.

The thing I don't understand about JR is why is he willingly just letting this franchise die? He says that baseball is his first love. You can't take your 2 billion dollars with you. Your reputation and legacy is going to be that you were a cheapskate who ruined the White Sox. Why wouldn't you do whatever to have a successful competitive team to enjoy for your last few years?

8 minutes ago, brijames1957 said:

The entire organization has just gotten used to and accepted losing. When is the last time you saw a player show even the slightest frustration? No one is breaking a bat or throwing anything in the dugout, not that it would improve things but hey at least show that you hate losing.

I don't see any kind of quick fix either. There is very little young talent in the farm system. And if you have an owner that isn't going to spend it is pretty hopeless until that owner is gone and then hopefully the new one will spend.

The thing I don't understand about JR is why is he willingly just letting this franchise die? He says that baseball is his first love. You can't take your 2 billion dollars with you. Your reputation and legacy is going to be that you were a cheapskate who ruined the White Sox. Why wouldn't you do whatever to have a successful competitive team to enjoy for your last few years?

The San Diego Padres are about to be sold for double that price ($3.9 billion) the person Jerry hurt most with his negligence is actually himself, as this franchise could be valued there.

11 minutes ago, brijames1957 said:

The entire organization has just gotten used to and accepted losing. When is the last time you saw a player show even the slightest frustration? No one is breaking a bat or throwing anything in the dugout, not that it would improve things but hey at least show that you hate losing.

I don't see any kind of quick fix either. There is very little young talent in the farm system. And if you have an owner that isn't going to spend it is pretty hopeless until that owner is gone and then hopefully the new one will spend.

The thing I don't understand about JR is why is he willingly just letting this franchise die? He says that baseball is his first love. You can't take your 2 billion dollars with you. Your reputation and legacy is going to be that you were a cheapskate who ruined the White Sox. Why wouldn't you do whatever to have a successful competitive team to enjoy for your last few years?

This is not a joke, could there be a problem with dementia?