If the Sox can keep stocking and developing the minors they can move those players like the Dodgers do to sustain the line up.

Having to trade elite #1 starters like Sale and Crochet because the cupboard was bare was painful.

Edited 17 hours ago17 hr by Falstaff

5 hours ago, Chick Mercedes said:

Granted if he’s hitting 15-20 homers next season and 90 RBIs, it’s going to be hard to watch. But until it happens, whatevs

If the White Sox are a playoff team and contenders no one is going to be thinking about Jacob Gonzalez next season, regardless of what he ends up doing in Pittsburgh.

10 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I see people keep saying this, but we basically used the slot savings at #34 to pay our 5th round pick slot. I actually like the 5th round pick too, but doesn’t change my thoughts here. I just think Jacob should have commanded more than this. For example, two years of Gavix Lux brought back a Comp A pick plus Mike Sirota for the Dodgers. This is potentially 6+ years of control of a guy who has flashed an ability to both impact the baseball and make good swing decisions at the major league and can play anywhere in the infield. The historical performance of guys selected in the Comp A round suggest we likely lose this trade and a 5th slot pick doesn’t really change the calculus.

Again, I like Landon Thome and love this draft class. Just think we look back on this trade and say “damn we could have gotten a lot more if we waited a year to trade Jacob”. Hopefully I’m wrong on all of this though.

I was going to say that comparing Jacob Gonzalez's trade value to Gavin Lux's is apples to oranges but someone else beat me to it. It's also hard to compare what the Pirates had to offer now vs. other returns we could have gotten because it was rather unique: more pool money and the supplemental round pick just before the Sox were going first overall in the draft.

I agree that this is a gamble as getting plus MLB players from the draft, especially after the first round, is hardly a sure thing. The merits of this trade is a good debate to have and it looks like we'll be debating it for the next few years, especially every time Gonzo gets an XBH, as these draft picks make their way through our system.

12 minutes ago, T R U said:

If the White Sox are a playoff team and contenders no one is going to be thinking about Jacob Gonzalez next season, regardless of what he ends up doing in Pittsburgh.

We all know that isn't true.

24 minutes ago, T R U said:

If the White Sox are a playoff team and contenders no one is going to be thinking about Jacob Gonzalez next season, regardless of what he ends up doing in Pittsburgh.

Nah, the comparisons will be made until Thome/Prosek either boom or bust.

Edited 15 hours ago15 hr by WhiteSox2023

1 hour ago, Bob Sacamano said:

I think the fact the Sox never even tried to play him anywhere else in the infield states a lot about how they feel about his defense. I don't remember reading anything positive about his defense (even calling him an average one).

Yea. While I like Gonzalez, it sure doesn't seem like the industry as a whole values him that highly. There are definitely questions on what position he settles at, the defensive value, and if the bat is legit. Playing the wait and see game here. Hope he kills it as a Pirate though.

6 hours ago, Chick Mercedes said:

Even if one thinks he was worth ‘more’, how much more are we really talking about? Just me but I’m pretty happy about buying the annuity here after he was basically valueless a couple months ago. I don’t like the nepo pick being the reason it all happened, but, that’s a different discussion. I don’t believe there was some great unrealized value that the Sox missed out on. We could have tried to sell higher by holding him in Charlotte for while, but really…..

The whole theme the last few trade deadlines is how that no one is will to trade young and under control bats for just about anything, suggesting that a guy like Gonzalez could have absolutely had value in a trade for a starting pitcher who could help this year, especially if he was never going to have a place to play with the White Sox anyway. I would absolutely listen to the idea that a guy like Prosek will be a potential huge piece of a future playoff team, making it worth the gamble, but also it is fair to remember this point in time as a point where we could have helped THIS team TODAY without hurting either today's team, or tomorrows. Now if they want a legit SP, they will have to dig deeper into the minors to do it, in all likelihood.

1 hour ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Nah, the comparisons will be made until Thome/Prosek either boom or bust.

That's under the assumption that he blows up and is some stud player, and probably the Sox would need to have a disappointing season.

While people may discuss or make comparisons, I stand by what I said that if the Sox are a 90+ win playoff team no one is going to lament the loss of Jacob Gonzalez.

2 hours ago, DirtySox said:

Yea. While I like Gonzalez, it sure doesn't seem like the industry as a whole values him that highly. There are definitely questions on what position he settles at, the defensive value, and if the bat is legit. Playing the wait and see game here. Hope he kills it as a Pirate though.

Also, one thing we haven't had in, like, forever is a surplus group of prospects that other teams crave and will ill-advisedly jump at, like Pittsburgh just did with Gonzo.

And the tradeoff isn't "Gonzo for Thome". It's Gonzo, plus the overall #1, a bunch of shrewd scouting/negotiating signings - for 3 crazy good prep bats, a very interesting prep arm, Volchco and a bunch of fliers on insane college power bats". If we wind up maxing out a half dozen interesting prospects from this class, that's the jackpot.

37 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Also, one thing we haven't had in, like, forever is a surplus group of prospects that other teams crave and will ill-advisedly jump at, like Pittsburgh just did with Gonzo.

And the tradeoff isn't "Gonzo for Thome". It's Gonzo, plus the overall #1, a bunch of shrewd scouting/negotiating signings - for 3 crazy good prep bats, a very interesting prep arm, Volchco and a bunch of fliers on insane college power bats". If we wind up maxing out a half dozen interesting prospects from this class, that's the jackpot.

Except we had all of that except the one extra pick, before the Gonzalez trade, and the extra pick ended up almost exactly fitting Prosek in, minus $300k. Thome signed for almost exactly what he would have slotted at if he had been picked at #41. If you look at the slot for the #35 pick, it is $2.9 million, or $300k less than we got Prosek to sign for. That $300k came from another pick somewhere else. The math is such that paying $3.2m for a pick slotted at $2.4 (again, you can even add back the extra $400k from the Thome pick moving up, that is still $300k short. If you believe that we planned on drafting Thome all along, which we have zero reason to doubt, the net effect is Prosek and a loss of 300k towards the rest of the pool. Who that ended up bumping out potentially? Who knows.

2 hours ago, T R U said:

That's under the assumption that he blows up and is some stud player, and probably the Sox would need to have a disappointing season.

While people may discuss or make comparisons, I stand by what I said that if the Sox are a 90+ win playoff team no one is going to lament the loss of Jacob Gonzalez.

This is true for a vast majority of Sox fans. But on social media and message boards, I still expect a vocal minority to dial up their outrage to 11 every time Gonzalez hits an extra base hit or knocks in a go-ahead run for the Bucs.

We have to remember, Sox were playing with house money with Gonzalez. He was another bad year away from getting cut from the organization. They worked on his swing and turned him into an asset for the future. That's what good organizations do!

And to be frank, I hope Gonzalez kills it in Pittsburgh. Kid deserves it after the changes he has made. It was just a solid baseball trade that helped both teams.

6 hours ago, Falstaff said:

If the Sox can keep stocking and developing the minors they can move those players like the Dodgers do to sustain the line up.

Having to trade elite #1 starters like Sale and Crochet because the cupboard was bare was painful.

This is and should be the goal

30 minutes ago, GGajewski18 said:

We have to remember, Sox were playing with house money with Gonzalez. He was another bad year away from getting cut from the organization. They worked on his swing and turned him into an asset for the future. That's what good organizations do!

And to be frank, I hope Gonzalez kills it in Pittsburgh. Kid deserves it after the changes he has made. It was just a solid baseball trade that helped both teams.

I don't feel like anyone has said differently. It is more like could it have been an asset today for a potential playoff team.

54 minutes ago, 77 Hitmen said:

This is true for a vast majority of Sox fans. But on social media and message boards, I still expect a vocal minority to dial up their outrage to 11 every time Gonzalez hits an extra base hit or knocks in a go-ahead run for the Bucs.

I think it just feels like that because the team was really bad recently so when you would see someone perform for another team, it stings. I think if they are in first place and headed for 90+ wins and a playoff spot I can't imagine you would see the same (at least certainly not as much as you did the past several years in the same situation.)

24 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I don't feel like anyone has said differently. It is more like could it have been an asset today for a potential playoff team.

This is a fair argument, but at the same time I appreciate the organization thinking big picture and not just this season.

4 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

The whole theme the last few trade deadlines is how that no one is will to trade young and under control bats for just about anything, suggesting that a guy like Gonzalez could have absolutely had value in a trade for a starting pitcher who could help this year, especially if he was never going to have a place to play with the White Sox anyway. I would absolutely listen to the idea that a guy like Prosek will be a potential huge piece of a future playoff team, making it worth the gamble, but also it is fair to remember this point in time as a point where we could have helped THIS team TODAY without hurting either today's team, or tomorrows. Now if they want a legit SP, they will have to dig deeper into the minors to do it, in all likelihood.

That was part of my downside of the deal when examining why it was done. It should have been for pitching in some form or fashion. But the Sox are always going to be the Sox. Always weirdly the Sox. It had to be for Thome, unfortunately. We can’t ever stop being the Sox until……

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

Except we had all of that except the one extra pick, before the Gonzalez trade, and the extra pick ended up almost exactly fitting Prosek in, minus $300k. Thome signed for almost exactly what he would have slotted at if he had been picked at #41. If you look at the slot for the #35 pick, it is $2.9 million, or $300k less than we got Prosek to sign for. That $300k came from another pick somewhere else. The math is such that paying $3.2m for a pick slotted at $2.4 (again, you can even add back the extra $400k from the Thome pick moving up, that is still $300k short. If you believe that we planned on drafting Thome all along, which we have zero reason to doubt, the net effect is Prosek and a loss of 300k towards the rest of the pool. Who that ended up bumping out potentially? Who knows.

The Sox didn't have the 35 pick.
Thome would have been gone by 41. They wanted Thome
Thome got them an extra $400k (plus $144.8k overage) by taking a haircut on his pick; an extra 544.8k to the pool.
No Thome pick probably requires another 5th year senior at a $7500 bonus out of the 7th slot (or higher).
Without Thome's money, they can't sign one of Prosek, Weingartner or Casteel.

So, picking Thome got them Thome and the ability to go full slot in another pick, #4-#7. In reality, it's Gonzo for Thome and one of Weingartner or Casteel, then Scolari or Burdette instead of a cheaper 5th year SR.

Thome and two slot upgrades. For Jacob Gonzalez, and an upgrade on Brandon Eisert.

1 hour ago, GGajewski18 said:

We have to remember, Sox were playing with house money with Gonzalez. He was another bad year away from getting cut from the organization. They worked on his swing and turned him into an asset for the future. That's what good organizations do!

And to be frank, I hope Gonzalez kills it in Pittsburgh. Kid deserves it after the changes he has made. It was just a solid baseball trade that helped both teams.

TBH, Gonzo said what turned him around was a change that his dad suggested to him that he finally tried.

3 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

The Sox didn't have the 35 pick.
Thome would have been gone by 41. They wanted Thome
Thome got them an extra $400k (plus $144.8k overage) by taking a haircut on his pick; an extra 544.8k to the pool.
No Thome pick probably requires another 5th year senior at a $7500 bonus out of the 7th slot (or higher).
Without Thome's money, they can't sign one of Prosek, Weingartner or Casteel.

So, picking Thome got them Thome and the ability to go full slot in another pick, #4-#7. In reality, it's Gonzo for Thome and one of Weingartner or Casteel, then Scolari or Burdette instead of a cheaper 5th year SR.

Thome and two slot upgrades. For Jacob Gonzalez, and an upgrade on Brandon Eisert.

If this went chalk, Thome essentially signed for the #41 slot. You can argue that Thome wouldn't have been available at #41, but then very clearly Prosek would have been, though again, he was 800k over slot at that pick, which without the Thome savings meant ANOTHER pick would have been sacrificed. Also the 5% bonus is on the slot itself, and not the signing amount. That is not accurate. It is 100% fair to say that this pick either got us Prosek or Thome, but the Prosek pick also came with a significant overslot cost that was above the slot value.

4 minutes ago, Chick Mercedes said:

That was part of my downside of the deal when examining why it was done. It should have been for pitching in some form or fashion. But the Sox are always going to be the Sox. Always weirdly the Sox. It had to be for Thome, unfortunately. We can’t ever stop being the Sox until……

The only evidence anyone is providing that the Thome pick isn't great is that his last name is Thome. They got a legit 1st rounder at #34 who gave a huge discount on the bonus. The discount allowed them to push better talent down at one slot, and pick an appropriate "best talent available" for another (instead of punting a pick to pay for the rest).

Realize that with each ensuing pick, it gets harder to grab back $544k through signing bonuses.

Seriously, should they have walked away from that because a couple of grouches will pretend it's a bad thing?

The more I look into this, the better the Gonzo trade looks for the Sox.

18 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

If this went chalk, Thome essentially signed for the #41 slot. You can argue that Thome wouldn't have been available at #41, but then very clearly Prosek would have been, though again, he was 800k over slot at that pick, which without the Thome savings meant ANOTHER pick would have been sacrificed. Also the 5% bonus is on the slot itself, and not the signing amount. That is not accurate. It is 100% fair to say that this pick either got us Prosek or Thome, but the Prosek pick also came with a significant overslot cost that was above the slot value.

And to expand back to where I was originally going with this, what if Gonzalez could have been the main piece in a Clay Holmes/Reid Detmer type deal, where this saves a current top prospect, such as a Bonemer, Carlson, or someone else in that range. So while you can make the case for getting these picks if it saved you trading other top prospects for a SP later, I would 100% factor that into the equation. We heard all of the last three years that the premium on young hitting is so massive that teams don't move these guys, which easily goes to say that a guy like Gonzalez who was one of the top AAA hitters, playing an absolutely massive premium position, and a guy seemingly blocked from any real playing time in the system, but we also kept hearing how much progress he had made as a hitter since he settled in after his debut, absolutely could be looked as a centerpiece for a SP deal that keeps other current top prospects in the system.

9 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

If this went chalk, Thome essentially signed for the #41 slot. You can argue that Thome wouldn't have been available at #41, but then very clearly Prosek would have been, though again, he was 800k over slot at that pick, which without the Thome savings meant ANOTHER pick would have been sacrificed. Also the 5% bonus is on the slot itself, and not the signing amount. That is not accurate. It is 100% fair to say that this pick either got us Prosek or Thome, but the Prosek pick also came with a significant overslot cost that was above the slot value.

I don't know if you're agreeing or not. Not getting the #34 pick loses them Thome, obviously. Knowing Thome wanted to sign at a discount was like drafting $544k to spend on other picks. Without the #34 pick, they lose that $544k, but then they have to get less creative on one of the #2, #6 or #11 picks. Yes, they'd still draft someone cheaper in those slots, but with lower ceiling.

12 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

And to expand back to where I was originally going with this, what if Gonzalez could have been the main piece in a Clay Holmes/Reid Detmer type deal, where this saves a current top prospect, such as a Bonemer, Carlson, or someone else in that range. So while you can make the case for getting these picks if it saved you trading other top prospects for a SP later, I would 100% factor that into the equation. We heard all of the last three years that the premium on young hitting is so massive that teams don't move these guys, which easily goes to say that a guy like Gonzalez who was one of the top AAA hitters, playing an absolutely massive premium position, and a guy seemingly blocked from any real playing time in the system, but we also kept hearing how much progress he had made as a hitter since he settled in after his debut, absolutely could be looked as a centerpiece for a SP deal that keeps other current top prospects in the system.

I would hope that if they're dealing Carlson or Bonemer, they're getting somebody way better than Holmes or Detmers. I think stocking the system with 3 high-ceiling prep bats and a handful of college power bats allows them to loosen their grip on guys like Bergolla, Shelton or even Wolkow (Zavala, if anyone cares?).

18 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I would hope that if they're dealing Carlson or Bonemer, they're getting somebody way better than Holmes or Detmers. I think stocking the system with 3 high-ceiling prep bats and a handful of college power bats allows them to loosen their grip on guys like Bergolla, Shelton or even Wolkow (Zavala, if anyone cares?).

There is a big drop off there. The last three are effectively throw ins