Gene Honda Civic Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Link Definitly an option the White Sox are looking into. More Minnesota Bulls***.... If Kenny makes that signing, it better be after soxfest. He'd be lynched otherwise...What steff did to him last year won't compare in the slightest to what I'd do. I can accept non activity more than I can activity just for the sake of activity. If you've got a limited budget, spend it wisely... Uribe has better range, is a more solid fielder, and posted better offensive numbers... His natural position is short. where's the upgrade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 You must be one of the few proud Valentin fans. I am willing to bet that Valentin and Guzman will probably get roughly the same amount of money next year(within 1M either way), so justifying keeping Valentin because of price doesn't hold water. Saying that Valentin is better defensively clearly shows that you are a Valentin fan and are not unbiasly making an accurate judgement. I hate it when people try to justify all the errors that Valentin makes because of his range/arm, but that doesn't apply in this case since Guzman has similar range/arm(probably better as Valentin gets older). When you factor in that Guzman has made 12 of fewer errors the past 3 seasons, than it becomes clear that Valentin is NOT better defensively than Guzman and the difference will only get worse as Valentin gets older. You than run to the oldest trick in the book(intangibles), which has been the BS justification for keeping Valentin's pathetic sub .250 hitting ass past his prime. You can't accurately meassure intangibles, yet according to all the Valentin fans, Valentin has the best leadership/intangibles in the majors(with little or no evidence to support this). What about the intangible of being a division winner 3 years in a row, playoff experience, beating the rival team(Sox) consistantly, and playing an important role in all of these? That is something that can be meassured, and yet you choice to ignore it and assume that Valentin's intangibles far outweigh Guzmans. Valentin has gotten worse every year since he has been in a Sox uniform, and at the age of 35 there is little hope of a turn around. Yet you choice to ignore this. 00 .273 BA .834 OPS 01 .258 BA .845 OPS 02 .249 BA .790 OPS 03 .237 BA .776 OPS 04 .216 BA .760 OPS If you can't understand the trend in the above stats, than you need to take a STATS101 class. You say that Valentin is usually good for a .235 BA with 25 HR and 70 RBI as if it is a good thing. Settling for a .235 BA(with a terrible OBP) since he hits 25 HR is the reason the Sox have underachieved and struggled the past couple of years. If you want another .500 team that hits 200 HR, than tell the Sox management to retain Valentin, but if you want to attempt to improve this team, than you need to substitute more complete players for some of the power hitters(especially power hitters that hit below .250). The one thing that I will agree with you on, is that Guzman is overrated. He refuses to walk, he doesn't use his speed on the BP, doesn't hit for a great average, doesn't have much power, and hasn't shown any improvement. With that said, I would still take Guzman over Valentin(and I do not like Guzman). Guzman might be a decent backup option if the price is right, but I really don't want him as a starter. I am not a big Vizquel fan, but I would rather have Vizquel than Guzman. Whatever the case, as long as Valentin is not wearing a Sox uniform I will be happy. I admit I have been a fan of Valentin over the years...probably his biggest on the board...but I do NOT want him retained. If the Sox retain him and intend to make him the starter, I expect the Sox to finish with around 75 wins next year at the most, even with a very solid rotation. Regarding defense, I would say they are equal(not valentin being better like I initially said). I've seen first hand Guzman miss several balls completely that Valentin scoops up easily or atleast knocks them down. And I have also seen Doug Mientkiewicz save Guzman's ass on quite a few occassions...not that I can prove either of these and that you'll just have to take my word on it. I personally do not take much consideration with intangibles...in fact, this is what I said exactly - "and, if you want to use the intangibles too, Valentin does atleast provide some leadership...Guzman provides none" - and I figured that someone would catch on that I do not use leadership as a way to evaluate a player. The only thing I can prove is that Valentin is a leader, and Guzman is not...I can't prove how effective Valentin is as a leader(because I can't tell you what his effect is on the clubhouse). And, while I do not have the numbers right in front of me, it seems to me that when Valentin is hitting well, the Sox are doing well, and when he tanks, the Sox tank...I can try to prove his leadership that way too. As I said though, I don't put too much into that...these guys are pros, they shouldn't need to have a true leader in there...the manager should lead them with words and the star player(s) should lead with their bats. I'm not sure if anyone on the Cardinals team is a leader, but they all hit the hell out of the ball, and that's leadership enough in my book. I have noticed Valentin's downward spiral in a Sox uniform, which is one of the reasons I do not wish to have him retained as a starter. His streakiness and his ineffectiveness against LHP is not something we can have from a starter at SS, regardless of the name, period. Basically...the only point I wanted to get across was that I'd prefer to retain Valentin over Guzman...we have absolutely no idea what Guzman will do when/if he leaves that quick turf in the rollerdome, perhaps he will remain effective(like Pierzynski did in SF, and Cabrera did in Boston), perhaps not...and we know what we will get from Valentin. In no way shape or form do I want to see either of them starting at SS for us next year. I'd much rather see Vizquel or even Uribe there over any of them. I will say that I wouldn't mind having Jose here as a super-sub assuming Harris is gone and Uribe is starting at 2B. He still can hit RHP farely well(in a very, very, very poor year, he still had an OPS of over .800 against them), and having that on our bench is not a bad idea. And his stats are so poor because of probably the worst second half of any player in the majors(.167 12 22 .617 in the second half with an OBP less then Joe Crede's regular season average(.239-.237)...so with any luck, he'd hit decently off the bench) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 More Minnesota Bulls***.... If Kenny makes that signing, it better be after soxfest. He'd be lynched otherwise...What steff did to him last year won't compare in the slightest to what I'd do. I can accept non activity more than I can activity just for the sake of activity. If you've got a limited budget, spend it wisely... Uribe has better range, is a more solid fielder, and posted better offensive numbers... His natural position is short. where's the upgrade? Your answer is also the answer to the number of division titles for the Detroit Tigers in the last 15 years. And the number of good managers the White Sox have had in the past 10 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 No reason to go after Christian Guzman. .309 OBP...UGLY. 10 stolen bases...ugly He has loads of talent, no doubting that but he's never lived up to it. I kind of think Jose Valentin may be a Twin next year. Call it a hunch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 No reason to go after Christian Guzman. .309 OBP...UGLY. 10 stolen bases...ugly He has loads of talent, no doubting that but he's never lived up to it. I kind of think Jose Valentin may be a Twin next year. Call it a hunch. Could be. I dont see him starting anywhere he goes though, quite honestly...but he could be there. I personally think he could end up in Boston...I think they realize that he is very underrated defensively, and knowing that he can move around the IF a little bit(going from 3B to SS to 2B) and even the OF in emergencies, and knowing knowing that he hits RHP quite well along with having the short porch and pesky's pole in RF...I think he would be a good addition to their bench. I think he would be able to hit like 20-25 homers off the bench for them if they gave him 100 games or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 I think he would be able to hit like 20-25 homers off the bench for them if they gave him 100 games or so. Hell if they just started him on home games when they were against righties he could probally hit 25 with pesky's pole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 No reason to go after Christian Guzman. .309 OBP...UGLY. 10 stolen bases...ugly He has loads of talent, no doubting that but he's never lived up to it. I kind of think Jose Valentin may be a Twin next year. Call it a hunch. As I was reading through this thread, the possibility of Valentin in a Twins uniform popped into my head as well. I can see that happening and Jose just simply KILLING the White Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 I get the feeling though, they'll bring in a veteran SS and have Uribe as the jack of all trades. At least for 2005. Urive is great depth in case somebody gets hurt. Uribe should also be insurance in case Willie or Joe are piss poor in 2005. Most teams can't make trades in season for a position player without dramatically overpaying. Yet Uribe could be the long term solution at SS Getting a short term fix for 2 years like Vizquel [or an Eckstein if Ana lets him go] makes more sense than getting a SS who the Sox aren't sold on for 3 + years like Guzman. But I'm thinking, who else is out there if Vizquel goes elsewhere, and Eckstein stays? What vet could be a one year stop gap? Craig Counsell I don't think should be starting. I know FLA would love to get rid of Alex Gonzalez [makes too much $, and I think they have a SS, Josh Wilson who's just about ready--playing in the aFL], though he doesn't match up w/ what the sox need. But if it meant the sox could get Pierre, that would be a possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 I believe Anahiem's current plan for Eckstien is to try and acquire Nomar and move Eckstien to 2B. Kennedy will probably be out for the first few months of next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 I believe Anahiem's current plan for Eckstien is to try and acquire Nomar and move Eckstien to 2B. Kennedy will probably be out for the first few months of next season. That's what I'm saying. If the Sox can't sign Vizquel, who else is there? Uribe should stay the UTL guy, and be back up in case of injury and Crede/ Harris poor play insurance. Vizquel would seem the ideal SS-two yrs, a #2 hitter, speed, defense, a switchhitter. Yet I don't know what other direction the sox would go at SS if not Omar. Say they make Uribe the SS then. What FA could play 2B and 3B? Placido Polanco. But he hits RH, doesn't steal bases. The Sox would have to get another speed guy who hits LH somewhere else Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Link Definitly an option the White Sox are looking into. That article lost all credibility when it said Valentin would be moving to 3rd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Very good discussion here on Guzman. Especially the part about Meintkzwxykstryz saving him at 1B a few times. I would think the Sox would consider Guzman as an option, but I don't think he'd be at the top of their list. Plus, I think Guzman will end up back in Minnesota. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Socks Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Royce Clayton is available. The Rockies told him he won't be starting in Denver next year, so he should look elsewhere if he wants to start. That would give you guys something to talk about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Royce Clayton is available. The Rockies told him he won't be starting in Denver next year, so he should look elsewhere if he wants to start. That would give you guys something to talk about. Away from Coors Field, Royce Clayton would not be a starting SS around the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Personally, I think the Sox should look to improve 2B instead of SS if they can't get a difference maker at SS(Furcal(trade)/Renteria/Nomar/ect). You also have to consider that there could be quite a few middle infielders available(via trade), especailly if the big market teams decide to upgrade and go after the big name FA middle infielders. I wouldn't be surprised if Baltimore would be willing to trade either Roberts/Hairston. If Nomar goes out west to either Anaheim or LA, than you could see either Eckstein/Kennedy or Izturis(a guy I would love to see the Sox get) become available. Palanco would be a nice addition through the FA market. The point is that there are a lot of quality middle infield options this offseason, and that the Sox should be patient and evaluate all their options. Vizquel/Guzman could be decent backup plans, but they shouldn't be the Sox only/primary options. Dye could be a decent option in RF, IF he comes at a reasonible price. I would like the Sox to go in another direction since Dye is a similar right handed power hitter that the Sox already have enough of, but for the right price he could be a decent option. I think the Sox should pass on Wickman. The guy has had injury problems in each of the last 3 seasons(including missing the entire 2003 season). Even when he was healthy he wasn't that effective(opp hitting above .280, mid 4.00 ERA, ect). Factor in that he is going to be 36 next season, and I think the Sox could find better options. Once again, if he comes very cheap(around 1M), than he could be an option at the backend of the pen, but he is too much of a risk as a closer/setup guy. One trade that I think the Sox should look at is a trade with LA(if they sign Nomar). Iztruis would be a great addition and the Sox might be able to get one of their young relievers(Sanchez or Brazoban) as part of a larger package. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 I guess I never talked about Dye and Guzman. Dye--no. The sox already have an older OFer in Everett. Guzman--only if other options fell through [Vizquel, another vet at 3B, 2B or SS] and he came cheap. He's a bottom of the order type free swinger. The Sox need a more patient hitter, who can hit near the top of the order. Now, if the sox could get a top of the order guy at another position [say Pierre in CF], then Guzman wouldn't be bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 I want Guzman. Now you're talking sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Don't dismiss the possibility of Jose killing us. He is a clutch hitter as we know and is capable of homering at any time. I hope he signs with a team in the other league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSteve Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Don't dismiss the possibility of Jose killing us. He is a clutch hitter as we know and is capable of homering at any time. I hope he signs with a team in the other league. If it is a clutch time, bring a lefty out of the pen, I am not very worried about Jose hurting us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelasDaddy0427 Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Both of the guys in the title are worthless. No way in hell. Not even for the league minimum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Why do you think Guzman is worthless? Just curious. Jose could kill us early in game with righty facing him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Why do you think Guzman is worthless? Just curious. Jose could kill us early in game with righty facing him. I don't think Guzman is worthless...but there are definately much better options out there. And if Jose faces us, all we have to do is throw him all kinds of breaking balls without hanging one. How hard is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Of Love Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Now, if the sox could get a top of the order guy at another position [say Pierre in CF], then Guzman wouldn't be bad. Everytime Ozzie/KW/Hawk/whomever mentions "small ball," Juan Pierre comes to mind. IMO, he is exactly the type of guy Ozzie gets off about....and rightfully so. The last 2 years with Florida, he's not only played in 162 games each season, but hit over 300 each season....2nd in the NL in SB behind Podsednik....s***, he led the leage in hits this past season too. I'm generally against trading PK or Carlos this offseason, but if they could somehow get Juan Pierre, I'd part with either of those two guys....plus, he could solve our RF problem next year by taking Rowand's place in center. Would be a tremendous pickup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Everytime Ozzie/KW/Hawk/whomever mentions "small ball," Juan Pierre comes to mind. IMO, he is exactly the type of guy Ozzie gets off about....and rightfully so. The last 2 years with Florida, he's not only played in 162 games each season, but hit over 300 each season....2nd in the NL in SB behind Podsednik....s***, he led the leage in hits this past season too. I'm generally against trading PK or Carlos this offseason, but if they could somehow get Juan Pierre, I'd part with either of those two guys....plus, he could solve our RF problem next year by taking Rowand's place in center. Would be a tremendous pickup. What i have heard from the marlins board they will not be moving pierre any time soon. He is cheap considering he is a top 5 lead-off man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox91403 Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Here, IMO, is what The Sox should do. If they want to play little ball, then sign Vizquel. This guy is an excellent number 2 hitter. Make Uribe your 2B. Every time I watched Uribe this season, the more I liked him, even when he was struggling at the plate, he nver got cheated in an at bat, plus his defense is incredible. Keep Carlos, move Willie Harris to CF and make him be Juan Pierre, he's really not that far away. Rowand in RF. Trade Konerko for pitching and sign a bullpen guy, starter or whatever. Gload plays 1B. Keep crede at 3B and make Valdez your reserve INF. Uribe can give Crede a day off and so on. Carl Everett, if he's healthy gives The Sox a stud off the bench. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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