*Official* Steroid Thread

[SoxFanForever]

Just saw on Sports Center that he named Wilson Alvarez as well. Wow...that's all I have to say.

[SuperSteve]

Wouldn't surprise me personally.

[GASHWOUND]

If he is lying, then all the people whom he accused would be/should be slapping a lawsuit on him.

 

That's a good point...I don't know how these types of lawsuits have turned out in the past, taking this not an opinion..in which that wouldn't have a case..but stating they for sure did use steroids...they would have something there..

 

But it may be to early, who's to say they won't sue him...but obviously all of them are gonna deny it..unless you put them in front of a grand jury like Giambi.

[Rex Hudler]

That's a good point...I don't know how these types of lawsuits have turned out in the past, taking this not an opinion..in which that wouldn't have a case..but stating they for sure did use steroids...they would have something there..

 

But it may be to early, who's to say they won't sue him...but obviously all of them are gonna deny it..unless you put them in front of a grand jury like Giambi.

 

The problem is if they sue him they open themselves up to investigation and cross-examination. Whether the details of Canseco's book are 100% correct, it is doubtful they want their dirty laundry aired for everyone.

[Rex Hudler]

The reason I don't think its true is because this comes down to the boy who cried wolf.  Canseco is broke and is doing everything and anything he can to make a little money.

 

Larussa talked about it and said McGwire and Jose didn't even hang out and pretty much said the stuff was 100% BS.  At least about Jose shooting him up.  Then you have Canseco making this blatant accusations of actually shooting this guys up with roids and then later on he's asked and he goes I dont' remember, I may of done it once or twice for these players.

 

My 2 cents is when it smells like bulls***, it is bulls***.  I'm not saying these guys aren't juicing, I just think Jose has absolutely ZERO credibility at this point.

 

Whether Jose has any credibility or not, doesn't really matter does it? Whether the details he gives in his book are 100% correct doesn't matter.

 

What matters is the fans perception of what may or may not have happened. Could Roger Clemens have used steroids? sure.... Could any of the other players that have been mentioned so far done it? certainly... maybe even probably..

 

I think steroids was a lot more widespread than you think Jason. Perhaps not in the past 2-3 years, but throughout the 90's I have no doubt. I also have absolutely NO DOUBT at all that teams knew what was going on. When Brian Cashman says he didn't know Jason Giambi was using, he is speaking in technicalities only Bill Clinton can relate to.

 

I can confidently say that the attitude about steroids in the past was like the army policy with gays - Don't Ask, Don't Tell. Teams didn't give a crap about it as long as they didn't see it happening and no one got caught. A player had to do what he had to do.

 

Steroids, I believe were just as prevalent in the minors as they were in the Majors. Guys felt like they needed to take them to make it. Players felt like they had to hit 20 HR as a middle infielder. The Brady Anderson's of the game changed what players did to make it.

 

I am not saying that every player did roids. I am not willing to try and put a number on it because I was not there and most of my information is second-hand. But it would not shock me in the least if someone said that out of 25 guys on each team at least 5 were taking roids at least at some point. Wouldn't shock me if that number was much higher either.

 

That is why baseball doesn't want to look at the past, but only ahead to the future with the new policy. They buried their head in the sand and allowed it to happen for so many years because they couldn't beat the players union and get a policy in place. Plus, all the HR's and increased offense certainly didn't hurt fan interest in the game (hence - Chicks dig the long ball). Selig and company want everyone to see what they are doing now, but ignore what they didn't do for a long time. Now they are faced with some real dilemmas. How will they handle Bonds when he breaks Aaron's record? How quickly will Jose's book go away? Will Spring Training become one big witch hunt? Will every player that has an off year or that gets injured after being healthy most of his career be accused of 'roiding? MLB just wants it to go away, but it won't.

 

On the flip side, there is a slight possibility that Jose's book could help. I think many fans truly want to believe that guys like McGwire, Sosa, etc. weren't on steroids. Or at the very least, they suspect it, even know it in their minds but they suppress it because it taints the game they love.

 

If Jose's accusastions are so outlandish and if fans refuse to believe or admit they belive Roger Clemens, etc. used steroids, then they may begin to defend those players in their minds. If Jose is seen as many of you described him here and is seen as not having any credibility, then their may be anger in their pointed in his diretion. If that is the case, then at least subconsciously, they will defend their favorite players and all of this could go away faster. When I speak of "fans" I am speaking in a larger sense than just you or I.

 

Jose's book could be just enough to rip things wide open at the seams, which it seems it has been ready to happen. Or, the public may dismiss much of it because of its source. The steroid issue will not go away quickly, but it is possible that Jose's book could lessen the intensity. I wouldn't bet on that happening, but anything is possible.

 

Without even reading his book, my best guess is that the reality of what happened lies somewhere buried under the sensationalism the book protrays. So if you ignore the details of the hows, whys and even whos to a point, then you can probably at least believe the underlying point that steroids were very widespread.

Edited February 12, 2005 by Rex Hudler

[beck72]

Could Clemens have been a user? Probably. Is it "fair" to be named by Canseco as a possible user? Maybe not. But it's the players fault for letting this get out of hand. Esp. respected stars like Clemens. The guys who were/ are clean should have spoken out a lot sooner when they saw these freaks damaging the game. Clean players should have seen this coming---that some innocent players could be named, and that all players could be seen as suspect.

 

But if stars are using [like Bonds, Giambi, Sosa, McGwire and others possibly like some names mentioned by Canseco], that doesn't give lesser names a lot of room to "go public" or go to the media as an anonymous source and say who they suspect is using. These players may not even know exactly who is using.

 

But the fact that the Yankees removed language about steroid use in Jason Giambi's 2001 contract shows how prevelant steroid use was even back then, and very well known around the league. The players knew it, the teams knew it, the owners knew it. Now all of baseball is suffering because they didn't clean up their acts sooner

[Steff]

Slam Dunk Rex...

[southsider2k5]

Great post Rex!!

[Rex Kickass]

I don't advocate the use of steroids or performance enhancing drugs, but it was my understanding that it wasn't illegal in MLB prior to the past couple of years.... So why is this such a controversy? People are acting like every player before 1980 were as pure as the driven snow.

 

There have always been lots of "greymarket" things happening surrounding sports. It's a problem, let's clean it up and chase it aggressively now - and forget about what happened in the past. Frankly, it doesn't matter to me who made their nuts shrink for an extra boost in their stats.

[Rex Hudler]

I don't advocate the use of steroids or performance enhancing drugs, but it was my understanding that it wasn't illegal in MLB prior to the past couple of years.... So why is this such a controversy? People are acting like every player before 1980 were as pure as the driven snow.

 

There have always been lots of "greymarket" things happening surrounding sports. It's a problem, let's clean it up and chase it aggressively now - and forget about what happened in the past. Frankly, it doesn't matter to me who made their nuts shrink for an extra boost in their stats.

 

You are correct to a point, but the issue with steroids is that even though they weren't against baseball rules, they were illegal substances. Almost every other sport had banned them. Steroids at that time fell under their drug policy which called for counseling first for a player with a problem. The catch was, they had no testing so unless a player happened to get busted with illegal steroids in hand, there was no way of knowing.'

 

I don't think baseball should, nor will go back and change records broken by players suspected of steroids, but this era will always have someone of a footnote to it. Sadly, all players who performed well will get lumped together many years down the road when people talk about the steroid era.

 

It may not matter to you who used them, but I think you are the minority in that regard. If one player were caught, that woudl be one thing. But imagine if half the league were caught with corked bats. Would you then begin to question the integrity of the number they put up? I sure would.

 

I also find it funny that you "don't advocate the use of steroids or performance enhancing drugs" but that to you "it doesn't matter who made their nuts shrink for an extra boost in their bats". It's a fine line, but in esssence, the fact that you are okay with those that did in shows advocation. If no one cared whether it was done or not, then why the hell wouldn't guys do it? Health reasons? You won't find very many players at all that wouldn't trade off "potential health effects" for a huge multi-million dollar contract. The short-term reward is too great.

Edited February 12, 2005 by Rex Hudler

[greasywheels121]

In His Book, Canseco Says Giambi Overused Steroids

By RICHARD SANDOMIR, The New York Times

 

Jose Canseco, the self-anointed "godfather of steroids," alleges in his new book that Jason Giambi, a former Oakland Athletics teammate, "went overboard with steroids" and became "the most outright juicer in the game."

 

Canseco wrote that Giambi "had the most obvious steroid physique I've ever seen in my life." The San Francisco Chronicle reported last year that Giambi testified to the grand jury investigating the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative that he used steroids before signing with the Yankees in December 2001 and in 2002 and 2003 but not as early as 1997, the only season in which he and Canseco were teammates.

 

Canseco said that Giambi overused steroids and human growth hormone and got "so bloated, it was unbelievable."

 

"There was no definition to his body at all," Canseco wrote. "You could see the retention of liquids, especially in his neck and face; to those in the know, that was a sure sign of steroid overload."

 

In 'Juiced: Wild Times, Rampant 'Roids, Smash Hits and How Baseball Got Big' (Regan Books), Canseco wrote that he was a scholarly and careful drug user who first used steroids in 1984, then introduced other major leaguers to them a year later. He continued to do so throughout his career, until, he said, steroid use became widespread.

 

Canseco portrays himself in the book as a proselytizer for steroids and human growth hormone to teammates and rival players, describing for them the effects of individual drugs and where to buy them. The book is scheduled to go on sale Monday, but The New York Times purchased a copy yesterday.

 

Canseco called responsible steroid use "an opportunity, not a danger" and said that those who say otherwise speak "from ignorance."

 

Canseco will promote the book tomorrow night on CBS's '60 Minutes.' Mike Wallace, who interviewed Canseco for '60 Minutes,' said, "I believe some of what he said, and some I find a little far-fetched." Wallace said in an interview that Canseco was motivated to name players whom he introduced to illegal performance-enhancing drugs "because he believes in steroids, managed professionally."

 

Canseco wrote that he converted Mark McGwire to steroid use in 1988 and witnessed how he bulked up. "After batting practice or right before the game, Mark and I would duck into a stall in the men's room, load up our syringes and inject ourselves," Canseco wrote.

 

He added: "I was the godfather of the steroid revolution in baseball, but McGwire was right there with me as a living, thriving example of what steroids could do to make you a better ballplayer."

 

Canseco said that he believed that Oakland traded him to the Texas Rangers in 1992 because of his well-known reputation for using steroids, but once a Ranger, he said, he became a performance-enhancing mentor to Juan Gonzalez, Rafael Palmeiro and Ivan Rodriguez.

 

"Soon I was injecting all three of them," he wrote. "I personally injected each of those three guys, many times." The results on those three Rangers stars led more players to seek his advice, Canseco wrote.

 

Upon his return to the A's in 1997, he said, McGwire and Giambi would use the men's room in the Oakland clubhouse to inject each other with steroids and human growth hormone, while Canseco shot himself up.

 

Giambi's body, Canseco said, came to resemble a professional wrestler's because "he was overdosing testosterone."

 

Sounding like a cross between a pharmacist and Victor Conte Jr., the founder of Balco, Canseco wrote that Giambi should have taken a lower dose of testosterone, then balanced it with steroids like Winstrol or Deca or Equipoise.

 

McGwire has long denied steroid use, and Rodriguez, Gonzalez and Palmeiro have denied Canseco's accusations, which became public last week when The Daily News reported them. Two of Canseco's former Oakland teammates, Terry Steinbach and Walt Weiss, have scoffed at his accusations, and their former manager, Tony La Russa, said that the massive growth of McGwire's body was a result of his workout regimen and legal proteins.

 

La Russa said last Sunday that Canseco would speak openly about steroids and ignored advice to stop using them.

 

Canseco, 40, who last played in the major leagues in 2001, speculated that the accidental discovery of androstenedione, a so-called steroid precursor, in McGwire's locker during the 1998 season when he hit 70 home runs, was a strategic ruse to deflect suspicion that he used steroids.

 

"Mark was an experienced steroid user," Canseco wrote. "His physique speaks for itself. And he knows as well as I do that if you're taking steroids, you don't need androstenedione. McGwire using andro would have been like a hospital patient on morphine asking for an aspirin."

 

Canseco also suggested that he became an inspiration to Barry Bonds at a home run contest in Las Vegas in February 2000. After Canseco removed his shirt, he says, Bonds stared at his ripped 255-pound body and asked what he had been doing.

 

And what did Bonds do by the next season, Canseco asks? "He showed up in spring 2001 with 40 pounds of added muscle."

 

According to The Chronicle, Bonds testified to the Balco grand jury that he did not know that substances he took that his trainer told him were flaxseed oil and a rubbing balm were steroids, as prosecutors believe.

[Molto]

I do think Canseco is just trying to sell his book and is just giving a big "f*** you" to everyone, those are his intentions, but just because he's bitter and looking to take certain guys down, doesn't mean what he's saying is false. He's just letting it out because he doesn't care.

 

His intentions are wrong, but right or wrong, there is a steriod problem in the game and he would know about it more than most. Those two points together makes me think there is truth to what he's saying.

[soxhawks]

i dont care what he is trying to do to sell this book because i cant wait too buy it

[TheBigHurt35]

That Dave Martinez accusation is interesting.. there were a lot of rumors about him in '97 and why he was shipped from Chicago so fast.

 

IIRC, Davey left as a free agent at the end of the '97 season and, from what he said, the White Flag Trade had a lot to do with his decision.

 

I don't advocate the use of steroids or performance enhancing drugs, but it was my understanding that it wasn't illegal in MLB prior to the past couple of years.... So why is this such a controversy?

 

Well, because steroid use was illegal then, just as it is now. MLB just wasn't allowed to test the players. However, if someone like Canseco had been caught purchasing steroids on the street or injecting himself in a hotel room, he would've gone to jail.

[Rex Kickass]

I do think Canseco is just trying to sell his book and is just giving a big "f*** you" to everyone, those are his intentions, but just because he's bitter and looking to take certain guys down, doesn't mean what he's saying is false. He's just letting it out because he doesn't care.

 

His intentions are wrong, but right or wrong, there is a steriod problem in the game and he would know about it more than most. Those two points together makes me think there is truth to what he's saying.

 

The book is already out and for sale. Saw it at Hudson News tonight.

[Steff]

IIRC, Davey left as a free agent at the end of the '97 season and, from what he said, the White Flag Trade had a lot to do with his decision.

 

 

[LosMediasBlancas]

Clemens wouldn't surprise me. How does a guy get that much bigger at that age?.....Joe Borowski is another one, not that he's as old.

 

Want kid athletes to not use steroids? Here's an ad for ya: 'PALMEIRO, FORMER STEROID ABUSER, CURRENT VIAGRA USER'.

[LosMediasBlancas]

He had to. Had a near fatal liver issue.

Yep, roids will do that if you don't know what you're doing with them. Canseco is right though, under the supervision of a Dr. you can use roids, get all the benefits and not have the side effects. It's guys mixing and overloading in a locker room at a gym that end up all screwed up.

[Kalapse]

Yep, roids will do that if you don't know what you're doing with them.  Canseco is right though, under the supervision of a Dr. you can use roids, get all the benefits and not have the side effects. It's guys mixing and overloading in a locker room at a gym that end up all screwed up.

Just think about Brady Anderson, how he completely f***ed up his body by misusing steroids, I remember his liver shut down and he could have died. Also if what Canseco said was correct Giambi over dosed on steroids and got pretty damn sick. Some guys just don't know what the hell they're doing when they take them, they think that they can just shoot up as much as possible and there won't be any reprocutions. It's real dangerous s*** if yoiu don't know what you're doing.

[LosMediasBlancas]

Just think about Brady Anderson, how he completely f***ed up his body by misusing steroids, I remember his liver shut down and he could have died. Also if what Canseco said was correct Giambi over dosed on steroids and got pretty damn sick. Some guys just don't know what the hell they're doing when they take them, they think that they can just shoot up as much as possible and there won't be any reprocutions. It's real dangerous s*** if yoiu don't know what you're doing.

Yep, it has to do with the 'more is better' mentality in weightlifting. If I injected this much and it worked for these 2 months, then I'll inject twice as much for 4 momths and get twice as big. Then they go off of their cycle and they begin to shrink and psychologically it f***s with them. They end up staying on them permanently.

Edited February 21, 2005 by LosMediasBlancas

[SoxFan562004]

Boers and Bernstein were talking about this link on their show today... is just some visual evidence for people to consider....

 

http://www.detnews.com/2005/tigers/0502/21/tigers-94607.htm

[WHarris1]

Barry had his presser today.

LMFAO, saying all reporters have lied and have dirt, should they have asterik's by their name?

[Gene Honda Civic]

Barry had his presser today.

LMFAO, saying all reporters have lied and have dirt, should they have asterik's by their name?

Defiant Bonds Rages Against Media, Canseco

 

 

Clever writers puting "rage" in the HTML header.

 

//take the power back

[soxhawks]

i love barry, i think he still is one of the best players even without roids. i love how he takes no s*** from the media assholes.

[Gene Honda Civic]

alcohol is still legal to be sold over the counter. That is the great American tragedy, the over the counter sale of alcohol. Go ahead and concentrate on that

 

LOLOLOLOL

 

Look over there.

 

/runs away.