Holy Shit

[DukeNukeEm]

Our rotation is going to BE STACKED.

 

1: Buehrle

2: Garcia

3: Garland

4: BMac

5: Count/Duque

 

 

That s*** is GOING TO f*** PEOPLE UP>

 

4 Aces (1 potential Ace in BMac for the 4th) and a pair of very serviceable guys at the bottom. That s*** is CRAZY, like unbelievable. Thats the kind of staff that makes the rest of the league sit in envy.

 

Edited May 22, 2005 by DukeNukeEm

[qwerty]

We do not have one ace let alone four.

[WHarris1]

We do not have one ace let alone four.

Regardless thats a good f***ing rotation.

 

And MB is about as good a number one as you are gonna get. He's a top tier pitcher.

[witesoxfan]

Regardless thats a good f***ing rotation.

 

And MB is about as good a number one as you are gonna get.  He's a top tier pitcher.

 

Top tier = ace.

 

Buehrle is in the 2nd tier...and if Garland keeps this s*** up, he is up there too, if not higher.

 

Garcia is 3rd tier, a good pitcher who will win games but have rough outings. Has the s*** to work with, can use it, but does not and has not lived up to his potential.

 

Duque, Contreras, and BMac are in the whatever else tier

[WHarris1]

Ah this debate is endless.

It's all up to what someone considers an Ace.

[chisoxfan79]

One question about the rotation, Who is going to be the odd man out in 2006? With our current rotation signed through 2006, somebody is going to have to go. Will it be Garland? because he will clean house in Arbitration Will it be The Count I figure if he finishes the season strong trade him while his value is high. I say all this because we can not let Bmac rot in AAA for another year this guy is a stud!

[shagar69]

i hope your joking about the 4 aces thing, lol. we have 1 ace

[witesoxfan]

One question about the rotation,  Who is going to be the odd man out in 2006?  With our current rotation signed through 2006, somebody is going to have to go. Will it be Garland? because he will clean house in Arbitration Will it be The Count I figure if he finishes the season strong trade him while his value is high.  I say all this because we can not let Bmac rot in AAA for another year this  guy is a stud!

 

Trade the guy that will do the least amount of harm exiting your rotation while getting the most out of him in trade

 

Most likely that will be Contreras. Garland will get $5-6 mill in arbitration I would expect, unless he can pull a killer, Cy Young winning season out of his ass, in which case it will be around $8-10 mill in all likelyhood.

 

Garland > Contreras

 

Duque will be making $4 mill, is a solid junkballing vet pitcher in the rotation who will get around $4 mill

 

Duque > Contreras

 

Personally, I feel there is no explanation needed for the next 2 in our rotation, though and argument could be made for Garcia, because he is more questionable.

 

Buehrle > Contreras

Garcia > Contreras

 

Then it simply comes down to BMac. If Contreras were to put up 16 wins, 3.50 ERA, and a 1.20 WHIP, and you know he will do that, do you take that for $8 mill, or do you take McCarthy who will probably put up 12-14 wins, 4.50 ERA, and a 1.30 WHIP(though perhaps better) who will make $300,000?

[greg775]

I think Buehrle is top tier. There aren't many guys I'd pick over him, considering age and results.

He's pretty damn good.

[Be Good]

We have the best staff in the league. Let's not talk further then that.

:gosox1

[Fotop]

First of all this is a very GOOD problem to have. You can never have too much starting pitching. However, I'm wondering what we're looking at in the Free Agent market next year. With Everett and Shingo coming off the books and Konerko possibly coming off as well you're talking about 14million right there. Then of course if you deal a pitcher to make room for BMac, let's assume contreras, then you've freed up another 8million. That's 22 million of space, and the payroll will probably increase slightly due to better attendance let's say 25 million of room for the sake of the post.

 

So what do you do? 25million to spend and the glaring hole would be 1st base. First I'd assume we'd re-sign Frank...maybe 5million? Pay increases go out probably to AJ and Garland...probably another 4-5million in raises, maybe less. So that leaves 15million for first base and probably relief, plus whoever you get in a potential contreras trade. Which leads me to be quite curious about who's an FA after this season. There's going to be a good amount of cash for us, and signs point to us being able to make a big splash in a trade or the FA market. If anyone could help me out and link me to potential FA's, I'd love to see it.

 

4 Aces or not, the importance of BMac being a quality pitcher is paramount to our sustained success. Getting good/great production out of him for the league minimum gives us the ability to make the rest of the team quite strong. Needless to say, I like our future, and I'm getting a bit ahead of myself...but Gio could give us a McCarthy-like boost in the distant future as well.

Edited May 22, 2005 by Fotop

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Top tier = ace.

 

Buehrle is in the 2nd tier...and if Garland keeps this s*** up, he is up there too, if not higher.

 

Garcia is 3rd tier, a good pitcher who will win games but have rough outings.  Has the s*** to work with, can use it, but does not and has not lived up to his potential.

 

Duque, Contreras, and BMac are in the whatever else tier

 

 

MB's numbers are better than Woods, at least as good as Prior and he's far more durable than both of them.

 

 

Considering that and also considering that Wood and Prior are "aces" then how is it that MB is not an ace?

[Soxfest]

We do not have one ace let alone four.

 

MB is an ace Sunshine

[Wise Master Buehrle]

KW is sitting on a goldmine here and if he plays his cards right he could have his team in great shape for the next TEN years.

 

Will we need ANY upgrades on the 25 man roster over next winter? Perhaps.

 

Middle reliever, third basemen, first basemen?

 

But if we trade one of our 5 over the winter, we could trade maybe Contreras for two stud minor league prospects, one pitcher, one second basemen/shortstop/first basemen. A ballers.

 

It wouldn't hurt us at all if Big Mac is really ready for the show. And it would put us in a Twins like position. Guys can replace guys when they walk.

 

KW could also trade the Count at the break for a King's Ransom if he keeps pitching like this. We could get 3 stud prospects because there ain't gonna be s*** on the market at the All Star Break.

[witesoxfan]

MB's numbers are better than Woods, at least as good as Prior and he's far more durable than both of them. 

Considering that and also considering that Wood and Prior are "aces" then how is it that MB is not an ace?

 

They are aces to the general public and the media. That is because they are hyped like motherf***ers. Prior, when he is fully healthy, is an ace. Putting up a sub 2.50 ERA and winning 18 games while putting up a WHIP of just over 1 is extremely good...and because K/9 and K/BB is not an indicator of how good a pitcher is, but rather just his stuff and how well he uses it, I will not include that(Prior's was just awesome that year though...K/9 of 10.4, K/BB of almost 5).

 

Wood is not an ace. He is in the same group as FG...awesome stuff, but can never put it all together. The main difference of course is that FG is not nearly as injury prone as Wood is.

 

Like I have said...there are very few aces in the league, and it is hard to pick out who are aces and who are not. There are no qualifications, in my mind for aces, because it is such a subjective category. It is really very hard to distinguish what qualifies a pitcher as an ace and what does not. A guy can win fewer games than another, but be considered an ace, while another guy can put up a higher ERA than the other guy, and be considered an ace. It may be one of those things that is in the eye of the beholder. If you think Buehrle is an ace, then by god he is an ace. I do not think he is an ace, much like how I do not think Jamie Moyer was ever an ace, nor do I think David Wells has ever been an ace. I maybe just have a grudge against soft throwing lefties for some reason that I do not know.

[qwerty]

MB is an ace Sunshine

 

Disagree sunshine.

[Be Good]

Disagree sunshine.

I agree with Soxfest, sunshine. I love how Sox fans argue over this.

[Fotop]

MB's numbers are better than Woods, at least as good as Prior and he's far more durable than both of them. 

Considering that and also considering that Wood and Prior are "aces" then how is it that MB is not an ace?

 

Ace is such a subjective term because it's definition differs from person to person. A "true" ace to me is someone who has elite stuff, isn't hurt for prolonged periods of time, and has the stats to back it all. To me, there are very few of these pitchers in baseball (Prime Clemens, Prime Pedro, etc = aces). Buerhle is an interesting case because by modern definition his "stuff" isn't elite. However, his stats resemble that of someone who could possibly be an ace. Is Buerhle our "staff" ace? Yes. Does he bring "ace" intangibles to the club? Yes, ask Garland. But by the pure definition of ace Buerhle falls just short in my book. A great pitcher, but he won't be remembered as truly elite.

 

Wood is only ace due to his reputation and what his pure stuff used to be. He is a paper ace, and he doesn't back it up. Prior is an ace in the truest of forms. I was watching this guy today and was pretty amazed. His 125th pitch was 94mph. That's impressive alone, and the guy has impeccible command. Will he hold up? Possibly, but he needs to learn to pitch through pain a bit more.

 

Ultimately, the term ace is hard to define. I think people need to be careful when using the word because they usually don't differentiate between "staff ace" and "ace pitcher". MB is a staff ace, no doubt, but he falls short of possessing all of the qualities of an ace pitcher (basically just the pure stuff qualification). But we need to remember this isn't a bad thing, ace pitchers are few and far between and we're most certainly lucky to have 6 pitchers that can keep us in games everytime they take the ball. And as a ballclub, that's all you can ask for...who cares about how they compare to the rest of baseball if they just WIN.

 

 

EDIT: Btw, I am very much in agreement w/wite when it comes to Buerhle. In fact, Jamie Moyer is the name I always bring up when talking about how MB's career will pan out. I don't think I hold a grudge against soft-tossing lefties, either.

Edited May 23, 2005 by Fotop

[AirScott]

a simple qualification for ace: lots of innings, somebody who can win regularly with minimal help from the bullpen. Buehrle is an ace, even though he doesn't strike out a lot of hitters, because he can go deep into ballgames. he doesn't have the stuff, but he still gets guys out.

Edited May 23, 2005 by AirScott

[Heads22]

I don't care what the f*** you call them as long as you can call them winners.

[Rowand44]

We do not have one ace let alone four.

As of right now Garland's pitching like an ace and I still think Buehrle is an ace but like everyone said it all depends on what you consider an ace.

[witesoxfan]

a simple qualification for ace:  lots of innings, somebody who can win regularly with minimal help from the bullpen.  Buehrle is an ace, even though he doesn't strike out a lot of hitters, because he can go deep into ballgames.  he doesn't have the stuff, but he still gets guys out.

 

Kenny Rogers is an ace?

[Chisoxfn]

Ah this debate is endless.

It's all up to what someone considers an Ace.

If people considered Glavine an ace than I consider Buehrle and ace. Buehrle keeps his teams in the games and when necessary can totally shut down an opponent. Getting strikeouts isn't necessarily what makes you an ace, getting wins and keeping your team in the game are.

 

Now is he a top tier ace, no, but he's the ace of this staff. Freddy would be a 2nd tier pitcher and well Jon this season would be a top tier ace. Freddy has the ability to move into that Buehrle area (just needs to get back in his groove and pitch like he did against the cubbies).

[Wedge]

If people considered Glavine an ace than I consider Buehrle and ace. 

 

Exactly, that's probably the best way to determine if somebody is an ace: draw a comparison.

 

If you consider Maddux or Glavine aces, then I think you have to give it to Buehrle.

[whitesoxin']

I don't care what the f*** you call them as long as you can call them winners.

^^^Yeah that^^^