The Gigantic all encompassing TRADE THREAD

[Frank the Tank 35]

Alex Cintron is a SS. He's played 262 games at SS, 38 at 3B and 55 at 2B.

 

If he's not good enough to start over Clayton then he's not good enough to start over anyone on Oakland.

 

You're right, he's mainly a SS. My bad, I usually check those things before I post them. But he definitely has the ability to play 2b. From checking out his game log, they've been finding ways to get him in the lineup nearly every night. He's making a lot of starts. He has only played in 60 games this season, but it appears that in the first two weeks of the year he wasn't playing much and he didn't play for a about a week straight just recently (injury?). He seems like he's somewhat stuck bouncing from position to position as they try to get him some playing time ala the beginning of the year for Uribe last year.

[Frank the Tank 35]

I don't know how many times I have seen someone state that Crede was going to be a FA.  I got tired of explaining it, so I now I just state the fact that he won't be one.

 

Thanks. I guess I just keep hearing how Boras will try to get more $$ for Crede and am connecting that with free agency instead of arbitration. Well, all the cheaper Crede should be next year, right?

[YASNY]

Thanks.  I guess I just keep hearing how Boras will try to get more $$ for Crede and am connecting that with free agency instead of arbitration.  Well, all the cheaper Crede should be next year, right?

 

I expect the Sox to try and lock Crede up past his 1st year of FA eligibility. I also look for Boras to try and not let that happen. This is one that may actually make it to arbitration.

[Frank the Tank 35]

Well anyways, the speculation was fun for me while it lasted.

In any event I don't think the Sox have all the pieces that would allow us to trade for Chavez. I think we'd have to have a 3rd team involved. Getting Oakland a good young 2B would be a key to the deal IMHO. Believe me, I just looked through nearly every MLB team and there really aren't that many teams with young major league ready 2b's that would be willing to trade them. A bunch of them are already trying out their major leauge stripes (Weeks, Burke, Cano, Cantu can play 2b). The Dodgers and Padres have hot 2b prospects, but Kent is only signed through next year and Loretta's contract ends after this year. There aren't really any hot major league ready prospects that are stuck behind second basemen that aren't going anywhere for awhile. Pipedream it may be, but the media keeps bringing it up so it will continue to be the hot topic on my mind. Wouldn't mind the talk of a SP coming true either...

 

BTW, thanks DBAHO for actually listening and letting me speak my mind.

Edited July 1, 2005 by Frank the Tank 35

[YASNY]

Well anyways, the speculation was fun for me while it lasted.   

In any event I don't think the Sox have all the pieces that would allow us to trade for Chavez.  I think we'd have to have a 3rd team involved.  Pipedream it may be, but the media keeps bringing it up so it will continue to be the hot topic on my mind.  Wouldn't mind the talk of a SP coming true either...

 

I like Joe Crede. I don't think he'll ever be a superstar, but I think he lock down that 3B position for years to come. However, if we can get someone the caliber of Chavez, then by all means you have to do it. I don't see that happening, and when the rumor first broke a month or so ago, I said Beane would not trade Chavez.

[Kalapse]

I expect the Sox to try and lock Crede up past his 1st year of FA eligibility.  I also look for Boras to try and not let that happen.  This is one that may actually make it to arbitration.

Any Arbitor that would give Crede s***. Should stricken of his title and thrown onto the streets to live like a bum for the rest of his days.

[YASNY]

Any Arbitor that would give Crede s***. Should stricken of his title and thrown onto the streets to live like a bum for the rest of his days.

 

Whatever. I see our opinions on Crede's value differ. I know that 3B can be a black hole for a franchise for many years.

[Frank the Tank 35]

Whatever.  I see our opinions on Crede's value differ.  I know that 3B can be a black hole for a franchise for many years.

 

Just look at the Cubs pre-Ramirez

[YASNY]

Just look at the Cubs pre-Ramirez

 

Hell, the Mets played rotating 3b's for 40 plus years.

[Kalapse]

Whatever.  I see our opinions on Crede's value differ.  I know that 3B can be a black hole for a franchise for many years.

I like Crede too, I think he's got some decent pop and an Above Average glove. I just don't think he should make much in Arbitration, he has been a disappointment over his time in the big leagues and it would pain me to see him get a nice chunk of change from an Arbitor because he hits 23 HRs.

[Frank the Tank 35]

Crede's hit like 6 homers during June, I hope the A's have been watching. I wouldn't mind having Joe play from the 7th inning on. He seems to always get a clutch hit in the late innings... but if he hadn't done an 0-fer in his previous at-bats, it might not have had to come to late inning heroics.

[chisox2334]

Well Crede agent is none other than kenny willams and jerry reinsdorf friend scot boras.

[upnorthsox]

Can someone explain why exactly BB would be looking to unload Chavez?  He's signed for what, 5 more years?  For the entire prime of his career.  I keep hearing that the A's are rebuilding as a reason to trade Chavez.  Even accepting that premise (which I don't), it doesn't take 6 years to rebuild, especially when you have so much good young pitching.  (I'm not saying they've got Mulder and Hudson II, but Harden is REALLY good, and Haren's pitching well.  Blanton's recovering from the bad start.  That's a nice foundation.)  Why on earth would anyone trade one of the best hitting, best fielding players in the major leagues, who's signed at a reasonable price, who won't leave the team for many, many years?

 

He's not unloading him, EOS. Oakland can be right back in the thick of things next yr and they'll do it by building around a guy like Chavez, not trading him. Besides, BB never sells his MVP caliber players even when he knows he's going to lose them(see Giambi, Tejada).

 

All this Uribe for Vizquel talk has to be put back in its original context, that of one component in a larger trade for Schmidt. In that context there's alot of merit to the idea.

 

Pettite went to Houston to play at home, I don't see him changing his mind just to jump on a shooting star. Besides, he was only a few outs away from the WS last yr. I'll believe the Oswalt trade rumors when I see it, I think I'll have plenty of time to wait on that.

[beck72]

I'm not sure if this has been posted anywhere, but I re-read it and found it very interesting waht asst. GM Rick Hahn said from the 6-30 Daily southtown:

 

"There are sort of — I don't want to call them lesser elements, but maybe lesser role players that we are discussing," Hahn added. "But those types of players would actually leave us running a bigger risk with the chemistry. We feel like, 1 through 25, everyone is pulling in the same direction. So if you are going to disrupt that, you almost would prefer the major impact guy."

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So, the sox think that even adding a bench type player could disrupt the team chemistry. If that's the case, adding an impact player for the same "disruption" would be preferable, as the impact would be greater. If the disruption is the same, get a player who could have a greater impact on a game's outcome.

 

I like the fact that the sox are thinking big.

[Al Lopez Ghost (old)]

  I know that 3B can be a black hole for a franchise for many years.

I know how you know. Pete Ward to Robin Ventura. In between the two, yes, that was a black hole.

[Al Lopez Ghost (old)]

According to today's LA Times: "De Podesta is believed to have targeted Adam Dunn. Other available players who fit Dodger needs and McCourt's budget include Aubrey Huff and Carl Everett."

[beck72]

He's not unloading him, EOS. Oakland can be right back in the thick of things next yr and they'll do it by building around a guy like Chavez, not trading him. Besides, BB never sells his MVP caliber players even when he knows he's going to lose them(see Giambi, Tejada).

 

All this Uribe for Vizquel talk has to be put back in its original context, that of one component in a larger trade for Schmidt. In that context there's alot of merit to the idea.

 

Pettite went to Houston to play at home, I don't see him changing his mind just to jump on a shooting star. Besides, he was only a few outs away from the WS last yr. I'll believe the Oswalt trade rumors when I see it, I think I'll have plenty of time to wait on that.

 

All the chavez talk seemed to come from the sox asking BB about a trade. From all accounts, KW was quickly rebuffed. Chavez isn't going anywhere, not this year or anytime soon, esp as the A's are so close to .500. The A's can contend in the next few yrs and he'll play a huge part

 

I can see Hou. trying to get younger, with Bagwell and Biggio just about done. They have few impact position player prospects. Without trading a guy like Oswalt, they'll likely won't get any. Even with 3 stud SP's and a lights out closer, w/o any hitting, Hous. can barely stay out of last place.

[beck72]

According to today's LA Times: "De Podesta is believed to have targeted Adam Dunn. Other available players who fit Dodger needs and McCourt's budget include Aubrey Huff and Carl Everett."

 

Everett won't be moved. I thought he might if he couldn't play the OF. But Carl has been able to give Frank, Pods, Arow and Dye a rest by his playing the field. Its working out very nicely. Whatever the dodgers could offer for Carl wouldn't offset his loss.

[Mplssoxfan]

I know how you know. Pete Ward to Robin Ventura. In between the two, yes, that was a black hole.

 

I was actually thinking Willie Kamm to Robin Ventura. Now that's a black hole.

[Jabroni]

Everett won't be moved. I thought he might if he couldn't play the OF. But Carl has been able to give Frank, Pods, Arow and Dye a rest by his playing the field. Its working out very nicely. Whatever the dodgers could offer for Carl wouldn't offset his loss.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What about Kelly Wunsch!!!

[YASNY]

I know how you know. Pete Ward to Robin Ventura. In between the two, yes, that was a black hole.

 

We had a guy named Bill Melton in there. He wasn't too bad. No, I was thinking from Ventura to Crede.

[Jabroni]

We had a guy named Bill Melton in there.  He wasn't too bad.  No, I was thinking from Ventura to Crede.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

[beck72]

Billy Wagner just may have talked his way out of Philly. No way will Philly fans be kind to Wagner after this. He should be gone by the deadline. With his being a FA after this yr, few teams will overpay for him. I'd hate to see Boston come bidding for him. But the sox should be making a call today, if they haven't already

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Posted on Fri, Jul. 01, 2005

 

On Baseball | Wagner says Phils can't win

 

The outspoken closer, asked about playoff prospects, replied: "No chance."

 

By Jim Salisbury

 

Inquirer Columnist

 

 

NEW YORK - Two games before the midpoint of another season of great expectations and even greater underachievement, the Phillies are just a game over .500 and 71/2 games out of first place in the National League East.

 

As July begins, it's difficult to imagine this sputtering $95 million clunker making the playoffs.

 

Just ask Billy Wagner.

 

"No chance," was his response when asked yesterday whether he thought the Phillies had what it takes to make the postseason.

 

"We ain't got a chance to get there right now."

 

Wagner was standing in front of his locker in the Shea Stadium clubhouse after the New York Mets had handed the Phillies their 11th loss in the last 15 games.

 

The outspoken closer spoke calmly and never raised his voice. But, in responding to a few questions, he offered a powerful commentary on a team that could be in last place by bedtime tonight.

 

Wagner, who went to the postseason four times with the Houston Astros, was asked what he believes is missing from the Phillies.

 

"The know-how to win," he said. "You've got to know how to win before you can start thinking about playoffs.

 

"There are a lot of reasons to have faith. This ain't over. But anybody who says we have a clear shot to the playoffs right now is fooling themselves. We've got to win."

 

Would a trade help?

 

"Adding pieces isn't going to make us any better," Wagner said. "If you don't learn to win and show some fight, it doesn't matter."

 

Fight?

 

"We win, we lose, we play tomorrow," Wagner said with a shrug. "There's not that drive. There's not that focus all the time.

 

"Good teams find ways to get it done. The Braves. The Marlins. You don't see them complaining. The Braves were all beat up with injuries and now they're at the top of the division.

 

"It's time to quit bickering. We bicker about calls on the field. We bicker about the field. It's time to take it upon ourselves and play - concern ourselves with just winning."

 

At times, Wagner sounded a little like Larry Bowa, albeit with less emotion and acid in his voice. Bowa often wondered about this team's character and said things like this many times during his tenure.

 

Wagner isn't the first to question the team's focus. Manager Charlie Manuel addressed the subject in a team meeting Sunday.

 

The Phillies' lack of focus often can be seen at the plate in the form of bad pitch selection. Jimmy Rollins struck out swinging at a pitch near his eyes leading off the fourth inning in yesterday's 5-3 loss. Tomas Perez hacked at reliever Roberto Hernandez's first pitch with one out and two men on in the eighth inning. He grounded into a double play. Manuel said he didn't have a problem with Perez's swinging at the first pitch in that situation - as long as it was a good pitch. But the pitch from Hernandez was down.

 

The Phillies lost two of three to the Mets. They might have lost all three had not Mets pitcher Kazuhisa Ishii walked four in Wednesday night's 6-3 Phillies win. All four of those walks eventually became runs.

 

Far too often, Phillies hitters don't look as if they have a game plan. One veteran Mets player was stunned that Phillies hitters didn't try to work counts more in Tuesday night's game, which the Mets won, 8-3.

 

Hitters aren't the only ones who are not executing. Jon Lieber lost his fourth consecutive start yesterday and is 8-8 with a 5.18 earned run average after going 5-1 with a 2.57 ERA in his first seven starts. Brett Myers has allowed 13 earned runs in 71/3 innings over his last two starts, both Phillies losses.

 

"We don't stay focused often," Wagner said. "In a big situation, we don't focus on what needs to happen. We don't force guys to make pitches on us. We don't force guys to make bad swings when we're pitching.

 

"Myers, Lieber, Wagner, every guy in here needs to step up and make a big impact.

 

"We're only 71/2 out. It's not like we're 12 or 15 games back. But a lot of things have to go right to get back in it. We made up six games in a heartbeat, so it's possible."

 

The Phils were 21-26 and in last place, 71/2 games out of first, entering play on May 25. They then won 15 of 17 to go to eight games over .500 and 11/2 games out of first on June 12.

 

It's reasonable to wonder whether this team has another run like that in it.

 

And it's certainly understandable if you doubt it does. After all, what has this team done to win your faith, other than what looks like a lightning-in-a-bottle, home-run-fueled 12-1 homestand that seems as if it happened eons ago?

 

Wagner was asked whether he thought the Phils had another run in them.

 

"I have no idea if we do," he said. "We've just got to play better. I don't know what we've got left. We have to look inside and ask ourselves what we're playing for - to be here, or to win a championship. You can say it, but you need to prove it.

 

"We've got the guys here. We just need to prove it."

 

 

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[Al Lopez Ghost (old)]

We had a guy named Bill Melton in there.  He wasn't too bad.  No, I was thinking from Ventura to Crede.

How'd I forget Beltin' Bill?

 

I was thinking more of Ed Spezio, Luis Salazar, Wayne Tolleson, TIm Hulett, and of course, KW. BTW, and off topic - sorry -our opening day 3rd baseman in 1976 was Jorge Orta. Wasn't pretty.

 

To get back on topic, boy wouldn't Chavez look good at third?

[upnorthsox]

.......we don't focus on what needs to happen. We don't force guys to make pitches on us.

 

This is a problem we're well aware of for the first 7 innings in a game, it's one I'd like to see resolved before October.