The calm before the storm?

[Flash Tizzle]

Have you seen what teams are asking for their players?  We aren't JUST talking about minor leaguers like in years past, we are talking about 2-3 players off of our 25 man roster.  We would actually be openning more holes than we were filling in these deals.  How can anyone justify adding holes to the roster of the best team in baseball?  That is what I don't understand.

 

I don't believe we're the best team in baseball. This is the problem of perception regarding this club.

 

Ridiculous demands are common place near the trading deadline.

 

How has this year be any different from past season? It's always the same cycle: several teams bidding for a player, team with coveted player asks for a s***load of talent, deal rejected--several occasions, demands are lowered, negotiations resume.

 

Now, if creating a move just for the sake of one adds more holes to our team, I wouldn't approve it. If we have to trade 2-3 players for one player in return, certaintly it should be for a quality, immediate impact player. And of these three, two better be named Timo/Harris. If Olivo/Morse/Reed nets you Garcia, how much could a possible rental Burnett (in a swing deal for Wagner) possible cost? Or Overbay?

Edited July 28, 2005 by Flash Tizzle

[Texsox]

 

I don't see anyone player tipping the scales in our favor in a series with Boston, NY, Angels, or even, andthis would be cool, the Cards. So I'm not too worried either direction.

[RibbieRubarb]

This is where Kenny's relationship with other GMs comes into play.

His reputation around the league is a good one. GMs like his style and willingness to make every deal a win-win for both sides.

[daa84]

It goes both ways.  With a limited number of teams willing to deal away players, contenders might panic trying to get a leg up on their competition and overpay to do it, knowing that there are only a few days left and other people want the same players.

i agree. i just dont think that there are too many teams out there feel like they HAVE to buy. really this is the most odd year i can remember in terms of the midseason market. who are the sellers? obviously very few. who is trying to buy though? the sox are one. but look in the NL. StL? nope. SD? they were trying to exchange bad salaries, not exactly buy to make the team better. AtL? maybe, but no serious rumors. Wash? ok they are one. mets i suppose. but even still the mets and washington are more lukewarm buyers, the mets still dont know that they can win, and besides they are always buyers, even ifthey stink (see victor zambrano). but in the AL you havent heard much of anything out of anaheim, oakland hasnt seemed interested. out east the O's are, as are the bosox, but what about teh yankees? the players they have targetted/are targetting are randy winn and el duque. the interest just doesnt seem to be there like it has in teh past, and maybe thats because there are only a handful of worthwhile players available, but it just seems so odd to me that teh white sox are really teh only team out there who have been mentioned in numerous trades, and in teh biggest of trades at that.

[WHarris1]

I don't see anyone player tipping the scales in our favor in a series with Boston, NY, Angels, or even, andthis would be cool, the Cards. So I'm not too worried either direction.

I was thinking about this too...does adding AJ Burnett really make us that much better in a 5 game set with Boston? IMO the only thing that would make a significant impact would be another bullpen arm.

[3E8]

I was thinking about this too...does adding AJ Burnett really make us that much better in a 5 game set with Boston?  IMO the only thing that would make a significant impact would be another bullpen arm.

That depends a lot on if we are only starting our top 3 pitchers. If we are going 4, I don't want Contreras starting in Fenway and we can't guarantee El Duque will be available.

[southsider2k5]

I don't believe we're the best team in baseball. This is the problem of perception regarding this club.

 

Ridiculous demands are common place near the trading deadline.

 

How has this year be any different from past season? It's always the same cycle: several teams bidding for a player, team with coveted player asks for a s***load of talent, deal rejected--several occasions, demands are lowered, negotiations resume.

 

Now, if creating a move just for the sake of one adds more holes to our team, I wouldn't approve it. If we have to trade 2-3 players for one player in return, certaintly it should be for a quality, immediate impact player. And of these three, two better be named Timo/Harris. If Olivo/Morse/Reed nets you Garcia, how much could a possible rental Burnett (in a swing deal for Wagner) possible cost? Or Overbay?

 

As of a couple days ago there were 23 teams within 5 games of a playoff spot. Blame the Houston Astros of last year, but every team thinks that they can make it to the playoffs with a little bit of luck, so WAY less teams are willing to deal than in years past. All you have to do to see that is contrast what we paid for Garcia and what is being talked about for Burnett

 

Garcia took position player starter and two minor league prospects to get the top pitcher on the market, and not even at the deadline, this was a month earlier.

 

In 2005 Burnett who is argueably the best pitcher on the market vs Schmidt is giving up the teams top lefty reliever and the systems top prospect, plus taking on a 3 year $25 million contract on top of it, and that is with not much of a chance of resigning the guy, vs being able to resign him. At different stages there were also asking for Jose Contreras to be in the deal, or Cliff Politte. If you look at what San Fran was asking for Schmidt it was even higher than that, as they wanted Marte, McCarthy, and Contreras for Schmidt.

 

Because of the number of teams trying to add vs trying to subtract the years are not even comparable.

[daa84]

That depends a lot on if we are only starting our top 3 pitchers.  If we are going 4, I don't want Contreras starting in Fenway and we can't guarantee El Duque will be available.

the thing is, a #4 starter is very valuable. maybe not in the first 5 game series. but usually he does start in the LDS in game 4. Not to mention, if you are planning to make it to the next round, they dont give you time to reset teh rotation. its very possible the in teh LCS or WS that the #4 starter has to start game #1 or 2. besides having a 4th starter you can count on, allows you to use a #1 or a #2 or a #3 or even the #4 himself out of the bullpen in a potential game 6 or 7. if you give up 2 runs over 5 innings in the playoffs, generally someone is waiting to come in to take your spot, because your leash is much shorter in the playoffs (rightly so). but the arguement that only 3 starters are needed in the playoffs really is not a good one. IMO if you want the best chance to win, you need 4 that you can absolutely count on. the old saying is true, you can never have too much pitching

[Dick Allen]

The White Sox could really use some more bullpen help, and some more offense. I've never seen the point of acquiring Burnett............unless he nets you Wagner.

[thedoctor]

The White Sox could really use some more bullpen help, and some more offense. I've never seen the point of acquiring Burnett............unless he nets you Wagner.

 

i agree with this. although it would be nice to have a guy like burnett, numbers-wise he's negligibly better than the count, and that's pitching in a pitchers haven. to me, burnett and contreras are very similar - guys with great stuff who for whatever reason haven't had that stuff translate into wins or dominance.

 

i'm not saying contreras is better than burnett, but i haven't through this entire process understood why we were so hot after him, unless as you mentioned he was subsequently spun to the phils for wagner.

[3E8]

but the arguement that only 3 starters are needed in the playoffs really is not a good one. IMO if you want the best chance to win, you need 4 that you can absolutely count on. the old saying is true, you can never have too much pitching

This is the main reason I want Burnett even if it is a rental. I don't understand why people think he will not help us if he is healthy. Our league best ERA is the reason why we win. I appreciate the season Contreras has had thus far but I don't want him starting any playoff game. Plus I don't know how much anyone cares but we'd get 2 picks after offering him arb.

[Sox It To Em]

This is the main reason I want Burnett even if it is a rental.  I don't understand why people think he will not help us if he is healthy.  Our league best ERA is the reason why we win.  I appreciate the season Contreras has had thus far but I don't want him starting any playoff game.  Plus I don't know how much anyone cares but we'd get 2 picks after offering him arb.

 

I agree, if we want to make and win in the playoffs, you need at least four solid, dependable pitchers, not three and a couple of maybes.

[daa84]

I agree, if we want to make and win in the playoffs, you need at least four solid, dependable pitchers, not three and a couple of maybes.

yep. you need 4. no way around it. yankees had to start kevin brown in game 7 and paid for it. the marlins in 03 got excellent contributation from pavano that allowed them to be flexible with their use of beckett

[KevHead0881]

I agree, if we want to make and win in the playoffs, you need at least four solid, dependable pitchers, not three and a couple of maybes.

 

Well, if history shows us anything, its that Burnett isn't really a solid, dependable pitcher. He's good, but he's kinda got the Contreras stigma of being good one start and bad the next. I mean, the guy has got a record under .500 in his career...and thats while playing on some damn good Florida teams.

 

Can't remember who said it, but he was right: blame the situation. If Kenny can pull off a move that makes us better, then I will be the happiest guy here. Problem is, there really isn't an impact player on the market that is worth the asking price. Hell, the only two guys who are really available who I'd describe as "impact" players (Overbay and Wagner), nobody is really sure that they are available.

 

There is no way for me to know what Kenny is thinking right now. All I know is that he's one of the most aggressive GM's in the league. He's also consistantly said over the years (and recently) that he's always looking to make this team better. If we don't land a guy at the deadline, I'm pretty sure that it won't be for a lack of trying.

[ceffa2000]

Well, if history shows us anything, its that Burnett isn't really a solid, dependable pitcher.  He's good, but he's kinda got the Contreras stigma of being good one start and bad the next.  I mean, the guy has got a record under .500 in his career...and thats while playing on some damn good Florida teams.

 

Can't remember who said it, but he was right:  blame the situation.  If Kenny can pull off a move that makes us better, then I will be the happiest guy here.  Problem is, there really isn't an impact player on the market that is worth the asking price.  Hell, the only two guys who are really available who I'd describe as "impact" players (Overbay and Wagner), nobody is really sure that they are available.

 

There is no way for me to know what Kenny is thinking right now.  All I know is that he's one of the most aggressive GM's in the league.  He's also consistantly said over the years (and recently) that he's always looking to make this team better.  If we don't land a guy at the deadline, I'm pretty sure that it won't be for a lack of trying.

I agree wholeheartedly with you Kev. The dreamer side of me wants to believe that we can pull these deals off for Wagner and Overbay but the pragmatic side tells me it probably won't happen. But it certainly won't be from Kenny not trying, just the trading environment that he's working in right now. Damn the wild card.

[LosMediasBlancas]

I agree wholeheartedly with you Kev.  The dreamer side of me wants to believe that we can pull these deals off for Wagner and Overbay but the pragmatic side tells me it probably won't happen.  But it certainly won't be from Kenny not trying, just the trading environment that he's working in right now.  Damn the wild card.

 

 

Damn the wildcard is right. What teams do within their farm systems and in the off season in terms of FA is going to become more important. Seems tougher to 'rent a winner' nowadays.

[fathom]

You really think at the endo fo June Frank Robinson would have won? I still think it would have went to Bobby Cox for keeping his team in it with a bunch of injuries and a whole lot of rookies playing in key positions for him. One of the managers Ozzie learned from by the way. Cox would have had my vote.

 

Robinson would have won in a landslide. Remember everyone say the Nationals were the biggest surprise in all of baseball....even more than the Sox?

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 28, 2005 -> 02:52 PM)

Robinson would have won in a landslide.  Remember everyone say the Nationals were the biggest surprise in all of baseball....even more than the Sox?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think you are completely wrong. No way it would have been a landslide and I believe Cox would have wond it. At the same time they were saying that they were also saying it was luck because they had less runs scored than runs given up. They knew it was just a matter of time until it caught up with them and the BRaves or Marlins took over.

[Rowand44]

I think you are completely wrong. No way it would have been a landslide and I believe Cox would have wond it.  At the same time they were saying that they were also saying it was luck because they had less runs scored than runs given up. They knew it was just a matter of time until it caught up with them and the BRaves or Marlins took over.

I'm with fathom on this one. Frank would have won easily.

[mrzo2733]

At first I was not in favor of making the deal for Burnett. I have come around though. As the deadline gets closer and closer, any deal for pitching would be good. The reason I want it to happen now is that then we can move Contreras to the pen and eventually we will have El Duque in the pen too. If we can do this trade and then follow it up with another one for a reliever, we are looking at a dominating pitching staff. Our bullpen would be sick- El Duque, Contreras, Politte, Cotts, Hermanson, Guardado? fill in the blank some lefty reliever, and maybe Jenks if we want to use that roster spot for him. That is a championship caliber pen. Plus Burnett is a power pitcher and he adds a different dimension to our starting staff in a series. We'd have a good blend of different pitching styles to throw at people. We are definitely better off for it.

[ceffa2000]

Still not convinced Burnett would be better than El Duque in the playoffs.

 

JC & El Duque would not work out of the pen.

[Milkman delivers]

I think you are completely wrong. No way it would have been a landslide and I believe Cox would have wond it.  At the same time they were saying that they were also saying it was luck because they had less runs scored than runs given up. They knew it was just a matter of time until it caught up with them and the BRaves or Marlins took over.

 

Yeah, fathom's definitely right on this one. Robinson had that thing wrapped up about a month ago. Bochy would've even had a good shot at coming in second a while ago.

[mrzo2733]

Still not convinced Burnett would be better than El Duque in the playoffs.

 

JC & El Duque would not work out of the pen.

 

I think El Duque would perfect in the pen for the playoffs. Basically, his stuff is non-existant at this point. I mean all he throws is garbage. I think at this point he has a better chance at contributing with pure guts in the pen and not for six innings in the playoffs.

[Bubba Philips]

Still not convinced Burnett would be better than El Duque in the playoffs.

 

JC & El Duque would not work out of the pen.

here's one the yankees want ElDuque and the yankees have 2 first basemen Martinez and Giambi both playing well.

[SoxFan1]

here's one the yankees want ElDuque and the yankees have 2 first basemen Martinez and Giambi both playing well.

If you are reccommending getting steroids abusers or 50 years olds....fuggedaboudit!