Prospects for Players

[VAfan]

When were Gio and Haigwood going to crack our rotation, exactly? Certainly not next year.

 

This is certainly a good deal for the Phillies, who add a proven CF and young pitching.

 

But it is also a good deal for the White Sox. Thome gives us lefty power with a high OBP. When was the last time we had such a player? Sure, there is injury risk, but it is also a risk to re-sign Paul Konerko for $13+ million/year.

 

Moving Rowand actually opens up some very good possibilities for the Sox. As I've said elsewhere, I think the Sox should sign Brian Giles and move Pods to CF. This would give us a second high OBP lefty and allow us to say bye bye to Paul Konerko. No one on the team would get more than $10 million/year. (Giles could be had for $8-9 million/year probably.)

 

We could then use the $4-5 million difference between Giles and Konerko to re-sign Frank Thomas and still have money left over.

 

Sox would have a middle of the order with three guys who can get on base 40% of the time. That's a dramatic offensive upgrade. Granted, our defense wouldn't be as sharp, but we could have LIDPs for CF and 1B.

[SSH2005]

When were Gio and Haigwood going to crack our rotation, exactly?  Certainly not next year. 

 

This is certainly a good deal for the Phillies, who add a proven CF and young pitching.

 

But it is also a good deal for the White Sox.  Thome gives us lefty power with a high OBP.  When was the last time we had such a player?  Sure, there is injury risk, but it is also a risk to re-sign Paul Konerko for $13+ million/year.

 

Moving Rowand actually opens up some very good possibilities for the Sox.  As I've said elsewhere, I think the Sox should sign Brian Giles and move Pods to CF.  This would give us a second high OBP lefty and allow us to say bye bye to Paul Konerko.  No one on the team would get more than $10 million/year.  (Giles could be had for $8-9 million/year probably.)

 

We could then use the $4-5 million difference between Giles and Konerko to re-sign Frank Thomas and still have money left over. 

 

Sox would have a middle of the order with three guys who can get on base 40% of the time.  That's a dramatic offensive upgrade.  Granted, our defense wouldn't be as sharp, but we could have LIDPs for CF and 1B.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Giles would be nice but it isn't happening. They will try to re-sign Konerko. Brian Anderson is all but guaranteed to be our starting center fielder.

[SnB]

The past failures of traded prospects shouldn't be a compliment to Williams, but a detriment to our system.

 

I'll admit now I was very upset Williams gave up Morse, Reed, and Olivo for Garica. But due to Garica's pitching in the playoffs, regardless of how those three finish their careers, it was worth it.

 

In a few years, who knows? Perhaps Haigwood and Gonzalez are both fixtures in the Phillies rotation while we're inserting jobber 4th/5th starters from the waiver wire. I simply don't like how both prospects were included. The package Williams provided is one I'd expect from a HEALTHY Thome. Not one removed from a terrible, godawful, injury ridden season. Let's hope he's healthy this year.

i understand exactly where you are coming from, but I have a different take on this.

 

When is our window to repeat as world series champions?

This year and maybe next year.

 

KW is willing to sacrifice a bit of our "possible" future, to strengthen our team for this upcoming season.

 

He's continuing his "win now" attitude he had at the beginning of last year, and honestly I have no problem with that.

[SSH2005]

i understand exactly where you are coming from, but I have a different take on this.

 

When is our window to repeat as world series champions?

This year and maybe next year.

 

KW is willing to sacrifice a bit of our "possible" future, to strengthen our team for this upcoming season. 

 

He's continuing his "win now" attitude he had at the beginning of last year, and honestly I have no problem with that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly. Contreras could be gone after 2006 and Buehrle could be gone after 2007. Our best chance of repeating is next season and possibly 2007.

Edited November 26, 2005 by SSH2005

[Cerbaho-WG]

I don't remember giving up any prospects for Dye.  As for everett, the prospects were not of the sme quality as GIO.

 

Franklin Francisco, Anthony Webster and Josh Rupe weren't as good at the time as Gio? Please stop talking like you know an iota about the farm system.

[Chisoxfn]

I don't remember giving up any prospects for Dye.  As for everett, the prospects were not of the sme quality as GIO.

Jeremy Reed was a better prospect than Gio and that deal worked out just fine for the Sox. A lot of people over-value Gio. He doesn't have near the trade value a lot of people seem to assume.

 

He's a prep lefty who has not pitched past High A ball who has durability issues (potentially).

[DBAHO]

Jeremy Reed was a better prospect than Gio and that deal worked out just fine for the Sox.  A lot of people over-value Gio.  He doesn't have near the trade value a lot of people seem to assume.

 

He's a prep lefty who has not pitched past High A ball who has durability issues (potentially).

You gotta remember with Reed, he had wrist problems all 2005, therefore the problems with the bat, but his defense at Safeco was better than advertised.

 

And Jason, I know you don't like Gio , but you gotta admit, those K numbers he put up this season were very impressive for a 19 year old (during the season, he's 20 now).

 

You gotta remember B-Mac didn't start really dominating until he was 21, and that was in 2004 when he went from low A, to high A and AA.

[Rowand44]

You gotta remember with Reed, he had wrist problems all 2005, therefore the problems with the bat, but his defense at Safeco was better than advertised.

 

And Jason, I know you don't like Gio  , but you gotta admit, those K numbers he put up this season were very impressive for a 19 year old (during the season, he's 20 now).

 

You gotta remember B-Mac didn't start really dominating until he was 21, and that was in 2004 when he went from low A, to high A and AA.

As talented as Gio is, he's only pitched in High A ball and he's a bit injury prone. There is a good shot Gio won't even make it to the majors.

[DBAHO]

As talented as Gio is, he's only pitched in High A ball and he's a bit injury prone.  There is a good shot Gio won't even make it to the majors.

But you also gotta remember, the jump from high A to AA in this organization, is not the hardest one, especially if you're a pitcher. Plus still at his age, you don't expect him to pitch in AA and AAA at this stage.

 

What I'm saying is, if Gio was still here, I'd expect him to put up some good numbers in B-Ham in 2006, with the same K/9 ratios etc. Guys like Haigwood, have posted better numbers making that jump.

 

Gio's path to the majors, maybe a little bit longer than other pitching prospects, but I still thik he's going to be a good one, He's got 3 good pitches (1 excellent one in the curve, and a good fast/change combo). In fact, he could be a lot like Randy Wolf who Philly have under control at the moment, if things play out properly.

[beck72]

Looking at Haigwood a little closer, his high walk total for a soft tosser didn't exactly fit for the sox. If he had Buehrle like control [who Haigwood was compared to], then it would be a different story. But a soft tosser who gets himself in trouble with walks is begging for trouble

 

Gio's numbers were excellent. But I'm glad the sox have Liotta

[DBAHO]

Looking at Haigwood a little closer, his high walk total for a soft tosser didn't exactly fit for the sox. If he had Buehrle like control [who Haigwood was compared to], then it would be a different story. But a soft tosser who gets himself in trouble with walks is begging for trouble

 

Gio's numbers were excellent. But I'm glad the sox have Liotta

Beck what are your thoughts on Gio compared to Liotta? Ray had a good year no doubt, and an excellent ERA at his 2 stops (2.26 Kanny, 1.45 WS), but his lack of K's are a little bit worrying to me (only 37 in 8 starts for the Warthogs). Of course I know you don't have to strike out pitchers to be successful, but the key for Ray will be can he keep that ERA low in the higher levels if he's not going to strike out a lot of hitters.

[beck72]

Beck what are your thoughts on Gio compared to Liotta? Ray had a good year no doubt, and an excellent ERA at his 2 stops (2.26 Kanny, 1.45 WS), but his lack of K's are a little bit worrying to me (only 37 in 8 starts for the Warthogs). Of course I know you don't have to strike out pitchers to be successful, but the key for Ray will be can he keep that ERA low in the higher levels if he's not going to strike out a lot of hitters.

I'm thinking Gio's body might not hold up as a SP in the majors. That or else the Sox saw something in him they didn't like, either personally or professionally. He certainly had the numbers

[Guest JimH]

When were Gio and Haigwood going to crack our rotation, exactly?  Certainly not next year. 

 

This is certainly a good deal for the Phillies, who add a proven CF and young pitching.

 

But it is also a good deal for the White Sox.  Thome gives us lefty power with a high OBP.  When was the last time we had such a player?  Sure, there is injury risk, but it is also a risk to re-sign Paul Konerko for $13+ million/year.

 

Moving Rowand actually opens up some very good possibilities for the Sox.  As I've said elsewhere, I think the Sox should sign Brian Giles and move Pods to CF.  This would give us a second high OBP lefty and allow us to say bye bye to Paul Konerko.  No one on the team would get more than $10 million/year.  (Giles could be had for $8-9 million/year probably.)

 

We could then use the $4-5 million difference between Giles and Konerko to re-sign Frank Thomas and still have money left over. 

 

Sox would have a middle of the order with three guys who can get on base 40% of the time.  That's a dramatic offensive upgrade.  Granted, our defense wouldn't be as sharp, but we could have LIDPs for CF and 1B.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I suppose this is progress ... you waited until the 4th paragraph to start with the Brian Giles pipe dream.

 

Repeat ... it's not happening, Giles already turned down that type of money from the Padres, the White Sox will not be signing him ... this is a recording.

[SSH2005]

When were Gio and Haigwood going to crack our rotation, exactly?  Certainly not next year. 

 

This is certainly a good deal for the Phillies, who add a proven CF and young pitching.

 

But it is also a good deal for the White Sox.  Thome gives us lefty power with a high OBP.  When was the last time we had such a player?  Sure, there is injury risk, but it is also a risk to re-sign Paul Konerko for $13+ million/year.

 

Moving Rowand actually opens up some very good possibilities for the Sox.  As I've said elsewhere, I think the Sox should sign Brian Giles and move Pods to CF.  This would give us a second high OBP lefty and allow us to say bye bye to Paul Konerko.  No one on the team would get more than $10 million/year.  (Giles could be had for $8-9 million/year probably.)

 

We could then use the $4-5 million difference between Giles and Konerko to re-sign Frank Thomas and still have money left over. 

 

Sox would have a middle of the order with three guys who can get on base 40% of the time.  That's a dramatic offensive upgrade.  Granted, our defense wouldn't be as sharp, but we could have LIDPs for CF and 1B.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Giles will get more than $8-$9 million a year, probably over $10 million a year as well.

[DrGiggles]

I'm still upset about this trade and the only reason I believe KW gave up as much as he did is because he felt strong competition in the market for Thome.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Dude, I don't think the market was too high considering Thome said he was only gonna go to a midwest team that had a chance for success. That would be Cleveland and Chicago.

[Greg The Bull Luzinski]

Somebody should compile the definitive list of prospects we dealt that didn't pan out. (Royce Ring, Jeremy Reed, Jon Rauch, etc) Compare it with any that did. (Does Bobby Bonilla count?)

[SSH2005]

Dude, I don't think the market was too high considering Thome said he was only gonna go to a midwest team that had a chance for success.  That would be Cleveland and Chicago.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Indians were rumored to be willing to give up Coco Crisp and David Riske for Thome and cash. That wouldn't have been a bad haul for the Phillies. I can see why Kenny overpaid a bit. I'd rather have Thome on the Sox and not have Gio Gonzalez and Daniel Haigwood than have Thome on the Indians and have flashbacks of him killing us all over again.

[beck72]

Dude, I don't think the market was too high considering Thome said he was only gonna go to a midwest team that had a chance for success.  That would be Cleveland and Chicago.

OTOH, considering the sox wanted a big lefty bat to hit #3 or 4, someone who could fit in well in the clubhouse and not mess with the team's chemistry, it could be said the sox market for that guy was very small as well.

 

So in that regard, overpaying prospect wise made more sense than the average trade

[LDF]

It is hard to question KW's move after what he has done over the last few years.  There are obviously things we do not know.  He is the master at getting undervalued players for overvalued players.

 

I remember the Pods deal was also largely questioned and look how that turned out.  The Freddy Garcia deal was another one - the Sox gave up Olivo, Morse, and Reed, and look how that turned out for both sides.  Also, don't forget the Phillies are paying $22 Million over the next 3 years.  That is not chump change by no means. 

 

Granted, right off the bat it is hard to see why the Sox are giving up their starting CF, and 2 LH pitching prospects for a player the Phils deemed expendable with the emergence of Howard.

 

You have to also look at the residual effects of this trade.  This trade with the buyouts of Frank and Carl frees up cash to resign Paulie.  The Rowand move allows the Sox OF prospects to get some big league time.  Just take your pick there, the Sox are loaded at OF in the minors with Brian Anderson getting the first crack.

 

So the only questionable move are the 2 prospects, and right now thats all they are.  The Sox have actually done a better job of picking up other teams pitching talent compared to grooming their own thru the farm system.  Even by losing the Haigwood and Gio, the Sox still have Liotta, Haeger, and Broadway, so the system in not completely depleted of pitching prospects.

 

ok i will go back to my old argument, kw overpay in trade. granted freddy was a good pickup and i like it, but i thought he over paid with reed. in scott trade, i thought we didn't get enuf of a return, i know that scott was a huge part of our success, but look at the numbers that lee put up.

 

i like the reasoning of getting thome, but did we have to give that much? kw get fixated in players he wants and will sweeten any deal to pull it off.

[SSH2005]

ok i will go back to my old argument, kw overpay in trade. granted freddy was a good pickup and i like it, but i thought he over paid with reed. in scott trade, i thought we didn't get enuf of a return, i know that scott was a huge part of our success, but look at the numbers that lee put up.

 

i like the reasoning of getting thome, but did we have to give that much? kw get fixated in players he wants and will sweeten any deal to pull it off.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A season and a half later, do you still think we overpaid by giving up Miguel Olivo, Jeremy Reed, and Michael Morse for Freddy Garcia?

[bmags]

ok i will go back to my old argument, kw overpay in trade. granted freddy was a good pickup and i like it, but i thought he over paid with reed. in scott trade, i thought we didn't get enuf of a return, i know that scott was a huge part of our success, but look at the numbers that lee put up.

 

i like the reasoning of getting thome, but did we have to give that much? kw get fixated in players he wants and will sweeten any deal to pull it off.

 

not every trade has to be a steal...there is such a thing as a "fair trade" where it works out for both sides. The podsednik lee trade was one of em. You forget the all important point...podsednik, vizcaino, and PAYROLL flexibility that lead to a plethera of talent.

 

You could not have gotten the most coveted young pitcher on the market at that time for just miguel olivo and mike morse...you have to realize that proven talent has more value than unproven talent...

[SSH2005]

not every trade has to be a steal...there is such a thing as a "fair trade" where it works out for both sides. The podsednik lee trade was one of em. You forget the all important point...podsednik, vizcaino, and PAYROLL flexibility that lead to a plethera of talent.

 

You could not have gotten the most coveted young pitcher on the market at that time for just miguel olivo and mike morse...you have to realize that proven talent has more value than unproven talent...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not to mention the fact that we signed Dye to a cheap contract and he put up better numbers than Lee.

[LDF]

not every trade has to be a steal...there is such a thing as a "fair trade" where it works out for both sides. The podsednik lee trade was one of em. You forget the all important point...podsednik, vizcaino, and PAYROLL flexibility that lead to a plethera of talent.

 

You could not have gotten the most coveted young pitcher on the market at that time for just miguel olivo and mike morse...you have to realize that proven talent has more value than unproven talent...

 

you mention about a trade that is even for both, i would like to see kw get the best of any deal. granted that in the last several yrs has worked out, he still overpaid for them. you can't tell me kw had dye and others in mind when he was making trades. we got lucky.

 

that being said, i will always say that i understood the trade and like the player we got in return with ref to scott and freddy and even thome, but i still think, at the time of the trade, we over paid for it.

[AirScott]

Kenny wrote another chapter in trading great prospect(s) for an established, over the hill player who might help for one year, two at the most IF he (Thome) can still hit.  I don't get it.  Among other things, we solved a serious dilemma for the Phillies.  They didn't want Thome; they want to play Howard at First Base.  He is a much better player and his salary is the minimum.  So who can they go to to take Thome and half his salary off their hands?  Kenny and the White Sox.  I still can't visualize how they talked Kenny out of Gio.  I bet they're laughing in Philadelphia, harder than when we traded Johnny Calison for Gene Freese back in 1960.

maybe they'll be laughing IF Gio turns out to be an all-star every year. remember, no prospect is can't-miss, and Gio's never even been described as can't-miss. the Sox need a power left-handed bat (Thome), and there are a few promising centerfielders waiting in the wings. I wish it could have been Anderson instead of Rowand, but I'm still comfortable having Anderson take over.

[LDF]

maybe they'll be laughing IF Gio turns out to be an all-star every year.  remember, no prospect is can't-miss, and Gio's never even been described as can't-miss.  the Sox need a power left-handed bat (Thome), and there are a few promising centerfielders waiting in the wings.  I wish it could have been Anderson instead of Rowand, but I'm still comfortable having Anderson take over.

 

gio has been mention as the steal of the draft for the sox and has been highly touted by alot of exec in the baseball world.