Friend of Nordhagen Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 We have a bullpen of hard throwers, not pitchers. These so-called "power arms" would be, most importantly, locked up for years on first contracts. But many, many people on this site noted that several of these guys had problems getting the ball over the plate. And guess what? They can't. But they are locked up for years at reasonable rates. We have a roster -- and minor league system, apparently -- that rewards guys who swing hard, strike out a lot, and look great in a uniform. But they don't seem to play the game with intelligence or heart. We have little to no offense from LF and SS this year. Last year, we had little to no offense from LF and SS. No improvements were made, other than a heavy investment in wishful thinking about guys turning it around. This one's on the general manager, for hedging this season -- and sacrificing mightily -- for the promise of payroll predictability and undefined, uncertain and unlikely tomorrows. The next time he wants to go on a rant about wanting to see better performance, he should start with himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Just imagine how much worse the offseason would have been if Danks didn't make the opening day roster. Things are going to get ugly in the media with KW and Ozzie very soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxfest Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 03:19 PM) Just imagine how much worse the offseason would have been if Danks didn't make the opening day roster. Things are going to get ugly in the media with KW and Ozzie very soon. 3-2-1.............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCangelosi Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(Friend of Nordhagen @ May 30, 2007 -> 03:16 PM) We have a bullpen of hard throwers, not pitchers. These so-called "power arms" would be, most importantly, locked up for years on first contracts. But many, many people on this site noted that several of these guys had problems getting the ball over the plate. And guess what? They can't. But they are locked up for years at reasonable rates. We have a roster -- and minor league system, apparently -- that rewards guys who swing hard, strike out a lot, and look great in a uniform. But they don't seem to play the game with intelligence or heart. We have little to no offense from LF and SS this year. Last year, we had little to no offense from LF and SS. No improvements were made, other than a heavy investment in wishful thinking about guys turning it around. This one's on the general manager, for hedging this season -- and sacrificing mightily -- for the promise of payroll predictability and undefined, uncertain and unlikely tomorrows. The next time he wants to go on a rant about wanting to see better performance, he should start with himself. Well, in my opinion, this one is on Ozzie. It's absolutely ridiculous to bring in AAArdsma there. "Righty on Righty" matchup my f***ING ASS. For the love of God, can we NOT see that Logan is more capable of getting f***ING PEOPLE OUT RIGHT f***ING NOW????? WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ginger Kid Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 I see no need to divide up portions of blame -- I think everyone deserves a heaping portion. Except for Nancy Faust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHolyBovine Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(Friend of Nordhagen @ May 30, 2007 -> 03:16 PM) We have little to no offense from LF and SS this year. Last year, we had little to no offense from LF and SS. No improvements were made, other than a heavy investment in wishful thinking about guys turning it around. This is the point of the year, only you forgot about CF. This disaster is on Kenny. He needed a creative way to get another OFer this winter, and failed miserably. And I'm not talking about Crawford or Griffey...KW could have gotten Ryan Church or Scott Hairston (or someone of that ilk) for nothing in December. Eiher one of those solid guys would have made a huge differece; either one would have made the lineup more balanced, and would have made Erstad's sorry production more tolerable. But KW did the most conservative, unimaginative thing possible: He brought back Pods. I don't blame him for the pen...He got some power arms for nothing, which is what good GMs do. It hasn't worked out, but that's not for his lack of trying. The OF mess is completely his fault, and is a mistake worth losing your job over IMO...and I love KW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan562004 Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 have KW or Ozzie made any comments lately? I'm waiting for the "It's only June" or "With our schedule..." lame comments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(SoxFan562004 @ May 30, 2007 -> 08:35 PM) have KW or Ozzie made any comments lately? I'm waiting for the "It's only June" or "With our schedule..." lame comments Yeah, they said they're not going to be sellers at the deadline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 03:41 PM) Yeah, they said they're not going to be sellers at the deadline. To be fair, Guillen said that; not Williams. Williams would be foolish to completely dismiss the possibility at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg The Bull Luzinski Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 For the record, this thread has one of the best titles I have ever seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 The only two people who should be kept on the current coaching staff is Coop and Razor.... And we might need a new GM with a new point of view and who would re-tool the whole farm system coaching and player-wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg The Bull Luzinski Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(BearSox @ May 30, 2007 -> 04:50 PM) The only two people who should be kept on the current coaching staff is Coop and Razor.... And we might need a new GM with a new point of view and who would re-tool the whole farm system coaching and player-wise. I agree with you except on the point of Cooper. He is way over-valued on this board. WHile he has helped some guys, he certainly has failed with others. I am not sure I would fire Cooper, but just think he is overrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(TheHolyBovine @ May 30, 2007 -> 03:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This is the point of the year, only you forgot about CF. This disaster is on Kenny. He needed a creative way to get another OFer this winter, and failed miserably. And I'm not talking about Crawford or Griffey...KW could have gotten Ryan Church or Scott Hairston (or someone of that ilk) for nothing in December. Eiher one of those solid guys would have made a huge differece; either one would have made the lineup more balanced, and would have made Erstad's sorry production more tolerable. But KW did the most conservative, unimaginative thing possible: He brought back Pods. I don't blame him for the pen...He got some power arms for nothing, which is what good GMs do. It hasn't worked out, but that's not for his lack of trying. The OF mess is completely his fault, and is a mistake worth losing your job over IMO...and I love KW. CF is a HUGE improvement from last year. He is actually one of the best hitters on our team this year. That is not saying much, but it's true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(BearSox @ May 30, 2007 -> 09:50 PM) The only two people who should be kept on the current coaching staff is Coop and Razor.... And we might need a new GM with a new point of view and who would re-tool the whole farm system coaching and player-wise. I'd have no problem with Cooper being gone. There has to be a reason that these guys are all losing their velocities. This is true straight years that the pitching staff, as a whole, has underachieved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(BearSox @ May 30, 2007 -> 04:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The only two people who should be kept on the current coaching staff is Coop and Razor.... And we might need a new GM with a new point of view and who would re-tool the whole farm system coaching and player-wise. This has been the battle cry every year except 2005 from every unknowledgable baseball fan that considers themselves a Sox fan. Before they won the World Series the battle cry included Reinsdorf. People are always calling for the GM's and manager's head. It is ridiculous. You don't win by doing that. An organization is going to have its ups and downs. What an organization needs most is continuity. The only way you don't want continuity is if these are bad baseball people who have s*** for brains. This is not the case and it was proved in 2005. These are good baseball people that you just want to throw away. Why? Because they are a .500 team on May 30th? Please - let the season play out a bit. Let's see who becomes available and if they can possibly acquire an Ichiro or Griffey or Freel. You don't just start blowing s*** up because of a mediocre couple of months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 (edited) To be fair, how should Kenny have made the bullpen differently? I'll give everyone a head start and say Sisco never should have made the roster, and that his performance was reasonably predictable. But even then, they had good depth at that second lefty spot in Boone Logan, who seems ready to dominate the Hafners, Morneau's and Mauer's of the world. People act like Kenny has ever thrown money at relievers -- that's not his "style", and generally I'd say he's right in not throwing money at relievers. Look at the Sox' best relievers since 2000 -- Keith Foulke, Bob Howry, Damaso Marte, Flash Gordon, Shingo Takatsu, Neal Cotts, Cliff Politte, Dustin Hermanson, Bobby Jenks etc etc -- the highest paid out of ALL of these guys was Keith Foulke, and that was all of $4 million dollars. I'm also pretty sure that was arbitration. Kenny made a couple of mistakes (in my mind) this winter: - Bringing back Podsednik. - This plays into the first one, but not bringing in a real LFer. - I won't bash the Erstad move, as it's pretty clear even his mediocre performance this year is better than what Anderson would be doing, but I'll bash having Erstad lead off. He's not a leadoff hitter. - Falling in love with Floyd (see Cheat's latest post-and-comment at SouthSideSox). There are other mistakes here, but these go back a couple years. For example, the lack of offensive depth on this team relates to the farm system not producing s*** over the years. Edited May 30, 2007 by CWSGuy406 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 (edited) QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:02 PM) This has been the battle cry every year except 2005 from every unknowledgable baseball fan that considers themselves a Sox fan. Before they won the World Series the battle cry included Reinsdorf. People are always calling for the GM's and manager's head. It is ridiculous. You don't win by doing that. An organization is going to have its ups and downs. What an organization needs most is continuity. The only way you don't want continuity is if these are bad baseball people who have s*** for brains. This is not the case and it was proved in 2005. These are good baseball people that you just want to throw away. Why? Because they are a .500 team on May 30th? Please - let the season play out a bit. Let's see who becomes available and if they can possibly acquire an Ichiro or Griffey or Freel. You don't just start blowing s*** up because of a mediocre couple of months. We've played below .500 baseball for far too long. The biggest reason I want to see Ozzie fired is that I don't want him around our young players when we go into full rebuilding mode next year. Let him go manage the Reds and take Erstad with him. Edited May 30, 2007 by fathom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 04:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'd have no problem with Cooper being gone. There has to be a reason that these guys are all losing their velocities. This is true straight years that the pitching staff, as a whole, has underachieved. Couldn't velocity have something to do with the way they are training? Maybe we should look at our trainer and the types of workout he is putting the Sox pitchers on. You really think Cooper has something to do with the reduction of velocity? Why didn't it happen before the 2005 season? Did this happen to the minor league system while he was down there? Maybe, just maybe, there is another reason than Cooper. Just throwing that out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:05 PM) Couldn't velocity have something to do with the way they are training? Maybe we should look at our trainer and the types of workout he is putting the Sox pitchers on. You really think Cooper has something to do with the reduction of velocity? Why didn't it happen before the 2005 season? Did this happen to the minor league system while he was down there? Maybe, just maybe, there is another reason than Cooper. Just throwing that out there. I think that Coop wants all the pitchers to not throw so hard so they might get more movement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:05 PM) Couldn't velocity have something to do with the way they are training? Maybe we should look at our trainer and the types of workout he is putting the Sox pitchers on. You really think Cooper has something to do with the reduction of velocity? Why didn't it happen before the 2005 season? Did this happen to the minor league system while he was down there? Maybe, just maybe, there is another reason than Cooper. Just throwing that out there. Yeah, who really knows. However, I've been told that Cooper stresses, which is funny to say after today, command on the pitches more than velocity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> We've played below .500 baseball for far too long. The biggest reason I want to see Ozzie fired is that I don't want him around our young players when we go into full rebuilding mode last year. Let him go manage the Reds and take Erstad with him. Absolutely ridiculous. Young players can't tolerate Ozzie? That is a ridiculous excuse. If that is the case then I don't want those certain young players on this team. It is sad that you have to coddle certain young players. I doubt the Sox ever go into full rebuilding mode under KW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 The Sox haven't developed players like the Twins do. That's part of the problem. What I don't understand is why guys like Wilder and Schaefer, who are largely responsible for the players in the system and their development get promotions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:09 PM) Absolutely ridiculous. Young players can't tolerate Ozzie? That is a ridiculous excuse. If that is the case then I don't want those certain young players on this team. It is sad that you have to coddle certain young players. I doubt the Sox ever go into full rebuilding mode under KW. I think it's a two way straight with Ozzie and the young prospects. Ozzie is so much like Dusty when it comes to his love for veterans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:09 PM) Absolutely ridiculous. Young players can't tolerate Ozzie? That is a ridiculous excuse. If that is the case then I don't want those certain young players on this team. It is sad that you have to coddle certain young players. I doubt the Sox ever go into full rebuilding mode under KW. It's not that the young players don't like Ozzie, it is because Ozzie is a lot like Dusty and would rather play the "vets" rathar then the young-ins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah, who really knows. However, I've been told that Cooper stresses, which is funny to say after today, command on the pitches more than velocity. Stresses, ok, I can see that. I don't think he means stop throwing 100mph if you have control with it. Didn't Big Bobby do that? I don't believe Coop made him stop. There are other things involved in the equation besides the teaching of Coop. If you are that interested in it I think a little more research should be involved before fingers start getting pointed. I'm just sayin, I'm not sayin. QUOTE(BearSox @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's not that the young players don't like Ozzie, it is because Ozzie is a lot like Dusty and would rather play the "vets" rathar then the young-ins. You make it seem like Dusty and Ozzie are the only ones like this. If given the choice, any manager would rather have the vets than the young-ins - especially on a talented championship team. EVERY MANAGER! QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think it's a two way straight with Ozzie and the young prospects. Ozzie is so much like Dusty when it comes to his love for veterans. What manager isn't when given the choice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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