The cost of winning the 2005 WS

[chisoxt]

I told someone shortly after the Sox won it all in 2005 that one drawback of winning was that we would have to put up with the Kenny and Ozzie show for an eternity. The only way either of these two will go is if iehter or both quits.

 

As I observe this wreckage I regretfully say the same about the coaching staff especially Cooper and Walker.

 

Apparently, this whole organization will be in denial until the attendance starts to dramatically slump, which should be next year, given the awful effort this year

[rangercal]

why don't you manage

[whitesoxfan101]

I will say this, the set of events in 2005 and winning it all is MORE than worth the suffering we have going on these days. But you are right, the title blinded JR into thinking Ozzie and KW are good at their jobs, and neither of them are, and as a result it's going to take several more years of this inevitable suffering before we can try and get competent people to run our club. Is it worth it because of what happened in 2005?? Hell yeah, but I just wish JR would look at this objectively and realize our manager and ESPECIALLY GM are lousy at their jobs.

[Gregory Pratt]

Why was 2005 worth years and years of hypothetical mediocrity? I fully believe that you have five years after a title before you can complain about not having a title, but "once is enough for me" is not a winning attitude. The goal, and idea, should be that we can compete for a World Series title each and every year. More than that, the organization should make decisions that would facilitate such competitiveness each and every year.

Edited August 26, 2007 by Gregory Pratt

[CWSOX45]

Why was 2005 worth years and years of hypothetical mediocrity? I fully believe that you have five years after a title before you can complain about not having a title, but "once is enough for me" is not a winning attitude. The goal, and idea, should be that we can compete for a World Series title each and every year. More than that, the organization should make decisions that would facilitate such competitiveness each and every year.

 

Ah yes the 5 year grace period. I've heard this before too but I'm not buying it. Hell, look at Yankee fans. They expect a World Series trophy every year. (greedy bastards.)

 

This team went from 90 wins last year to a 90-100 loss season this year.

 

This teams fate was sealed in the off-season when Kenny failed to upgrade our bullpen and sign a better outfielder than Dana Erstad.

 

 

[kapkomet]

Ah yes the 5 year grace period. I've heard this before too but I'm not buying it. Hell, look at Yankee fans. They expect a World Series trophy every year. (greedy bastards.)

 

This team went from 90 wins last year to a 90-100 loss season this year.

 

This teams fate was sealed in the off-season when Kenny failed to upgrade our bullpen and sign a better outfielder than Dana Erstad.

And that's really all it boils down to. Last season was actually a good season.

 

[The Critic]

"Lifetime contracts" >>>>>> lifetime of never seeing my team win the whole damn thing.

[Yossarian]

I wish people would quit making such a big deal about winning 90 games last season. The team went 34-43 down the stretch, and the trouble they're in now was obvious to anyone who was looking. This is not a short term trend. It's a bad team on the verge of worse. They are now 32-53 since May 27, 2-12 since August 11. A few minor tweaks is not going to make this team a contender next year. 05 was great, but it's now a disappearing speck in the rear view mirror. Major changes are needed, starting with brutal honesty about the current state of the organization.

[Jeremy]

Wow, I've never really thought about Kenny getting fired. Even if it takes several years, that would make me really happy. Unfortunately, his replacement would probably be sub par enough to dull most of my excitement.

[southsider2k5]

"Lifetime contracts" >>>>>> lifetime of never seeing my team win the whole damn thing.

 

I remember seeing A LOT of people saying we should spend everything to take one chance at a World Series, and that it didn't matter what happened after the fact. They just wanted the one title. Those people seem to have all disappeared, except for one honest one here. to you for being honest.

[The Critic]

I remember seeing A LOT of people saying we should spend everything to take one chance at a World Series, and that it didn't matter what happened after the fact. They just wanted the one title. Those people seem to have all disappeared, except for one honest one here. to you for being honest.

As painful as it is to see how far they've fallen, the feeling of 2005 is worth it even if they never get there again.

 

Think about Astros fans - their team is every bit as bad as the Sox are right now, and they have a 4-game Series loss to remember from 2005.

I'm thankful for the 2005 trophy no matter what happens in the future. Of course I want them to return to the playoffs and win a few more Series, but if they don't it doesn't tarnish the memory of 2005 to me one bit.

[Balta1701]

I remember seeing A LOT of people saying we should spend everything to take one chance at a World Series, and that it didn't matter what happened after the fact. They just wanted the one title. Those people seem to have all disappeared, except for one honest one here. to you for being honest.

If we have to suck for 10 years+...that's easily worth it.

 

I don't have to like the sucking now...but you'll never get me to trade that 1 win for 10+ years of division titles without a series.

[thedoctor]

I remember seeing A LOT of people saying we should spend everything to take one chance at a World Series, and that it didn't matter what happened after the fact. They just wanted the one title. Those people seem to have all disappeared, except for one honest one here. to you for being honest.

 

i'll be honest as well. that title to me is worth all the crud baseball we've seen since, and probably for a period of time going forward. in 2005 i'd rooted for the sox for roughly 25 years. during those years the team had varying qualities and won-loss records, but for the most part all of them had one thing in common--they disappointed me. the 2005 team didn't so i'll grant a little leeway. now, do i want to see the organization bumbling around like idiots for the next 10 years? hell no. but at least i am somewhat used to it.

[CanOfCorn]

Win or lose, the White Sox are MY TEAM. It hurts when they lose and it's awesome when they win. This year is horrible, as was the second half of last year, and I think Kenny and Ozzie are going to be on a shorter lease next year. If they start just as bad, someone is going to be fired. I would also expect one of the coaches to be gone after this year.

 

I understand all the negativity, but I think if you took every Soxtalk poster and mashed their baseball knowledge together, you wouldn't equal either Kenny's or Ozzie's. Sorry guys, but we aren't that smart.

 

 

[OilCan]

I told someone shortly after the Sox won it all in 2005 that one drawback of winning was that we would have to put up with the Kenny and Ozzie show for an eternity. The only way either of these two will go is if iehter or both quits.

 

As I observe this wreckage I regretfully say the same about the coaching staff especially Cooper and Walker.

 

Apparently, this whole organization will be in denial until the attendance starts to dramatically slump, which should be next year, given the awful effort this year

 

 

Well, given the fact that KW actually put together the roster for '05, and Ozzie was managing all the right moves, who can blame them?

Now you want to bail on them because the lineup can't hit, the bullpen can't put out any fires and the team is in a tailspin?

Okay, go do so, but...given the fact that Kenny and Ozzie wants to taste success again, and would like to make the team into something the city can be proud of for years to come, don't expect KW to rest on his laurels. Now he's given notice by the fans, and you better believe that Jerry Riensdorf and the rest of the White Sox management are listening, as in lesser and lesser attendance = no money coming in.

 

I won't give them a 5-yr grace period. You're only successful as what you do now. But to their credit, KW, Ozzie and the rest of the organization did do something that the prior 84 years before 2005 could not. Give them that at least.

 

[LukeGofannon]

As painful as it is to see how far they've fallen, the feeling of 2005 is worth it even if they never get there again.

 

Think about Astros fans - their team is every bit as bad as the Sox are right now, and they have a 4-game Series loss to remember from 2005.

I'm thankful for the 2005 trophy no matter what happens in the future. Of course I want them to return to the playoffs and win a few more Series, but if they don't it doesn't tarnish the memory of 2005 to me one bit.

 

 

The Astros still have Berkman, Pence, Oswalt, Lee, Lidge, Qualls to fall back on. They'll be a lot better once Everrett, Biggio and Ausmus stop being automatic outs in the lineup.

[chisoxt]

Well, given the fact that KW actually put together the roster for '05, and Ozzie was managing all the right moves, who can blame them?

Now you want to bail on them because the lineup can't hit, the bullpen can't put out any fires and the team is in a tailspin?

Okay, go do so, but...given the fact that Kenny and Ozzie wants to taste success again, and would like to make the team into something the city can be proud of for years to come, don't expect KW to rest on his laurels. Now he's given notice by the fans, and you better believe that Jerry Riensdorf and the rest of the White Sox management are listening, as in lesser and lesser attendance = no money coming in.

 

I won't give them a 5-yr grace period. You're only successful as what you do now. But to their credit, KW, Ozzie and the rest of the organization did do something that the prior 84 years before 2005 could not. Give them that at least.

 

 

The lineup can't hit because it is comprised of a combination of one dimensional lineup old and slow and young untalented players put into place by the GM. The bullpen can't pitch and hasn't pitched for two years beacuse of gross misevaluations of talent by, yes, the GM. The misevaluation occurred on two levels, one misjudging the pitchers and two, thinking that Don Cooper was some sort of pitching coach god.

 

While I give credit to Ozzie and Kenny for winning a WS, I do think that it is a loser mentality to be satisifed by that one title, and then watch the team rot the next several years. No I don't expect Kenny to rest on his laurels. I just dont think that he, Ozzie, Cooper or Walker have the smarts to turn this around.

 

Finally, if I were jumping ship, I wouldn't be writing this.

[CHISOX BATBOY 2008]

Ah yes the 5 year grace period. I've heard this before too but I'm not buying it. Hell, look at Yankee fans. They expect a World Series trophy every year. (greedy bastards.)

 

This team went from 90 wins last year to a 90-100 loss season this year.

 

This teams fate was sealed in the off-season when Kenny failed to upgrade our bullpen and sign a better outfielder than Dana Erstad.

 

This is my first post here. I agree. I also think the number of people, and a lot of ST Holders, we not be going. Hopefully KW and Ozzie will show them wrong.

[Rex Kickass]

Well, given the fact that KW actually put together the roster for '05, and Ozzie was managing all the right moves, who can blame them?

Now you want to bail on them because the lineup can't hit, the bullpen can't put out any fires and the team is in a tailspin?

Okay, go do so, but...given the fact that Kenny and Ozzie wants to taste success again, and would like to make the team into something the city can be proud of for years to come, don't expect KW to rest on his laurels. Now he's given notice by the fans, and you better believe that Jerry Riensdorf and the rest of the White Sox management are listening, as in lesser and lesser attendance = no money coming in.

 

I won't give them a 5-yr grace period. You're only successful as what you do now. But to their credit, KW, Ozzie and the rest of the organization did do something that the prior 84 years before 2005 could not. Give them that at least.

 

 

Just because the pieces were right for 2005 doesn't mean that those pieces are a long term solution. Just like players eventually no longer fit the needs of a team, neither do managers.

 

Ozzie has always been a poor manager of his bullpen, IMO. He leaves some pitchers out way too long and gives others a strangely miniscule leash. What he was able to provide in 2004 and 2005 was a spark that made our team try to win. There was an intensity that he facilitated in a talented group of players that helped them get over that hump and grab that pennant. In 2006, the intensity wasn't there. There had always seemingly been a sense of resting on their laurels, always been a sense of entitlement to the playoffs that they weren't going to reach last year. Ozzie failed to provide the spark that the team needed last year, and when they started to falter down the stretch, Ozzie was either unwilling or unable to bring the team together enough to gut it out and make it happen. This year with a 100 million dollar payroll, he's unable to keep his team from Corpseball by June 15. Sure, there are a lot of holes in the makeup of this team this year. Crappy bullpen and a lackluster offense - BUT - we aren't a team that should be a 95 loss team. We should be at least an 80 win team. We showed some flashes of making that happen in July, but something snapped again. For the last half of last season, and all of this season, Ozzie has shown himself incapable of getting the best out of his players on a consistent basis. Unfortunately for White Sox fans, that is his job. So, it's time for Oz to go.

 

Kenny Williams put together a high payroll team and didn't get the right pieces to compete. Although this is one bad year, my standards are higher for this team than they were in 1999. Or 1989. We were a championship team, and if we're actually gonna spend 100 million dollars to put a team on the field, it ought to be a halfway decent one, and not a hodgepodge of AAA+ players that we can't seem to develop into anything decent anyway. His job is to spend the White Sox budget to put a competitive team on the field. Kenny Williams didn't do that. So it's time for KW to go.

 

Will we be competitive next year? Maybe. Maybe not. But if we're gonna go down the sinking ship route for years to come, let's at least develop a future to look forward to while we crash and burn out the rest of the decade. Unfortunately, I don't have confidence in the people the White Sox have to do just that.

 

[The Critic]

The Astros still have Berkman, Pence, Oswalt, Lee, Lidge, Qualls to fall back on. They'll be a lot better once Everrett, Biggio and Ausmus stop being automatic outs in the lineup.

Maybe, maybe not.

I haven't checked to see if there's an astrotalk.com, but if there is I'll bet there is a fair percentage of posters there calling for heads to roll.

From NL Champions to last place in 2 years - I'd imagine they're pissed, too.

And I'd imagine some of them may be looking at the Sox saying "The White Sox still have Konerko, Dye, Buerhle, Garland, Vazquez, Jenks, Pierzynski and Thome to fall back on. They'll be a lot better once Uribe, Richar and Owens stop being automatic outs".

Things always look worse when you're emotionally and/or financially invested.

[Steve9347]

"Lifetime contracts" >>>>>> lifetime of never seeing my team win the whole damn thing.

Thank you.

 

My goodness. When the Sox won the World Series, i couldn't think of any drawbacks...

[29andPoplar]

Maybe, maybe not.

I haven't checked to see if there's an astrotalk.com, but if there is I'll bet there is a fair percentage of posters there calling for heads to roll.

 

Wow, they sure did today. Yikes.

[kapkomet]

Wow, they sure did today. Yikes.

And it's the right thing to do...

 

[Dick Allen]

I remember seeing A LOT of people saying we should spend everything to take one chance at a World Series, and that it didn't matter what happened after the fact. They just wanted the one title. Those people seem to have all disappeared, except for one honest one here. to you for being honest.

The thing is the White Sox didn't sell the farm to win the WS. They did it pretty economically, and the only "prospect" they really surrendered and I am using that term as losely as it can, was Ryan Meaux. This team should not have suffered a drop off this badly. In fact the only franchise to be below .500 the second season after winning it all is Florida. There was another team or 2 that were below .500 the season after but bounced back a bit.

[whitesoxfan101]

Well at least ONE owner from the 2005 World Series had the common sense to not accept being pathetic, when will the other one catch on?