The Republican Thread

[southsider2k5]

Not in the least. The specific documents that were released came out based on an FOIA act request by the ACLU and multiple court orders requiring their release. The only thing that was their decision is how much to attempt to redact, and if they redacted too much, they'd risk having another court order them to un-redact a good chunk.

 

Funny statement, because they pretty much only redacted the "good" things that came out of it...

[Balta1701]

Funny statement, because they pretty much only redacted the "good" things that came out of it...

The names of the people who did the torturing?

[kapkomet]

The names of the people who did the torturing?

Why was it "torture", Balta?

[Balta1701]

Why was it "torture", Balta?

Because keeping a man awake for well over a week while repeatedly beating him and slamming him against a wall (Oh I'm sorry, slapping and walling him) meets my standard. And because the U.S. has set the standard that waterboarding is torture in the past by prosecuting people (specifically the Japanese) who used that technique against Americans for torture.

[lostfan]

Anyone mention yet how the Obama administration only released the papers showing what type of interrogation techniques we used, while they refuse to release the papers showing how many lives were saved and terrorist attacks were stopped because of these interrogation techniques.

 

That's kinda odd, huh?

Torture is incredibly overrated IMO and I wish more people would focus on that, if they did, these arguments probably wouldn't be so heated.

Edited April 24, 2009 by lostfan

[kapkomet]

(The outrage on "Torture") is incredibly overrated IMO and I wish more people would focus on that, if they did, these arguments probably wouldn't be so heated.

Fixed that for you.

[southsider2k5]

Torture is incredibly overrated IMO and I wish more people would focus on that, if they did, these arguments probably wouldn't be so heated.

 

Eh, its the same to the left as abortion is to the right. Its the hot button topic that gets people all fired up. People who believe in it can't understand how anyone could ever take it away as a legitimate tool. People who don't think is it a horrible thing, that should never, ever be done to a human. There really is not a middle ground.

[lostfan]

Fixed that for you.

Granted, but this reminds me of a discussion I was having w/someone not too long ago - the anti-torture crowd would have so much more support if they focused on the fact that torture doesn't even really work instead of focusing on it as a human rights issue. Everyone agrees that torture as a punitive measure is unconstitutional, but the pro-torture crowd thinks allowing it means it will work just like on TV. It really doesn't and in some cases it degrades the quality of your information. "Information" being a term I use loosely in that case.

[lostfan]

Eh, its the same to the left as abortion is to the right. Its the hot button topic that gets people all fired up. People who believe in it can't understand how anyone could ever take it away as a legitimate tool. People who don't think is it a horrible thing, that should never, ever be done to a human. There really is not a middle ground.

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm saying, they are more concerned with how it's a horrible thing than the fact that it's arguably not a legitimate (not the same thing as legal) tool.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Anyone mention yet how the Obama administration only released the papers showing what type of interrogation techniques we used, while they refuse to release the papers showing how many lives were saved and terrorist attacks were stopped because of these interrogation techniques.

 

That's kinda odd, huh?

 

 

I agree with your premise that they are cherry picking what they want released, but the bolded there really is an unquantifiable claim.

[lostfan]

I agree with your premise that they are cherry picking what they want released, but the bolded there really is an unquantifiable claim.

Yeah, when you're talking strategic-level stuff that's not directly related to a specific action, you can't measure something like that in numbers and it's really asinine for a senior gov't official to even try.

[Cknolls]

What is considered waterboarding?.......Tying someone down and pouring water them......or the actual pouring of water on the person? Because I keep hearing the number 183. These guys were not tied to a board 183 times.

[kapkomet]

What is considered waterboarding?.......Tying someone down and pouring water them......or the actual pouring of water on the person? Because I keep hearing the number 183. These guys were not tied to a board 183 times.

Whatever sounds the worst, is what the definition will be right now.

[southsideirish71]

Whatever sounds the worst, is what the definition will be right now.

 

The entire end game of these leaks is how they can get the bush administration once and for all. They want to march them up, put them on trial or better yet send them off to the hague.

 

UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyer

 

UN May prosecute Bush Administration, regardless of US action.

[kapkomet]

The entire end game of these leaks is how they can get the bush administration once and for all. They want to march them up, put them on trial or better yet send them off to the hague.

 

UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyer

 

UN May prosecute Bush Administration, regardless of US action.

Exactly.

 

 

[HuskyCaucasian]

The entire end game of these leaks is how they can get the bush administration once and for all. They want to march them up, put them on trial or better yet send them off to the hague.

 

UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyer

 

UN May prosecute Bush Administration, regardless of US action.

The Bush admin will get what was coming to them.

[kapkomet]

The Bush admin will get what was coming to them.

And that says it all... you care more about that then anything else.

[CanOfCorn]

I agree with your premise that they are cherry picking what they want released, but the bolded there really is an unquantifiable claim.

 

 

Not only that...but what administration DOESN'T cherry pick what they want released?

[HuskyCaucasian]

Obtained: Cheney’s Request Form Detailing The Two CIA Torture Docs He Wants

I’ve just obtained from the National Archives the actual request form that Dick Cheney submitted for CIA documents he claims will prove that torture worked.

 

Cheney requested all of two CIA documents, a total of 21 pages.

 

You can look at Cheney’s request form right here. They open the window a bit on the scope and direction of his request, which he has claimed will prove that Bush’s torture program yielded worthwhile intelligence.

 

Cheney requested two CIA reports, both of them from the “detainees” folder, which suggests that the docs detail the interrogation of suspects.

 

One is dated July 13th, 2004, and numbers eight pages.

 

The other is dated June 1st, 2005, and numbers 13 pages.

 

The CIA has redacted the detailed description of the documents because they’re classified. In total, Cheney requested all of 21 pages to support his claim that torture worked.

 

We still don’t know if we’ll ever get to see these docs, but this is a start. More soon.

 

Update: David Kurtz notes a key detail about this form: It’s a request for forms from Cheney’s office, which are marked “detainees.” As Kurtz says, that appears to mean that Cheney kept a file marked “detainees.”

 

Ok, so let me try and extrapolate this out and ask a question.

 

So, Cheney had a file of all the detainees in his office. Or at least, a file containing what info they have received from the detainees and presumably the methods by which this info was received.

 

That would mean, we have documented proof that Cheney knew exactly what methods where being used. Now, we have crimes for accessory to murder, is there accessory to torture? (Maybe on an international level?) If so, Cheney could be very easily be charged and convicted of approving, or at the very least, not trying to stop torture.

 

Just a thought.

[Balta1701]

First polling for the PA 2010 Senate Primary race (less than a year away) is in...Arlen Specter is currently being crushed by former Club for Growth head Pat Toomey (who Challenged Specter in 2004 and narrowly lost). 51-30 in favor of Toomey. 21 point lead, with Specter not just under 50, but barely above the 20's. That's an almost impossible position to recover from.

[mr_genius]

First polling for the PA 2010 Senate Primary race (less than a year away) is in...Arlen Specter is currently being crushed by former Club for Growth head Pat Toomey (who Challenged Specter in 2004 and narrowly lost). 51-30 in favor of Toomey. 21 point lead, with Specter not just under 50, but barely above the 20's. That's an almost impossible position to recover from.

 

no one cares. well Specter probably does, but he deserves to lose.

[Balta1701]

no one cares. well Specter probably does, but he deserves to lose.

You will care when that seat becomes competitive because Toomey can't take the General like Specter can.

[mr_genius]

You will care when that seat becomes competitive because Toomey can't take the General like Specter can.

 

 

if i'm not mistaken, Specter voted for all the bailouts, economic stimulus plan, and big spending in general. no big loss if he's gone.

Edited April 25, 2009 by mr_genius

[Balta1701]

 

if i'm not mistaken, Specter voted for all the bailouts, economic stimulus plan, and big spending in general. no big loss if he's gone.

But, he was also one of the key votes that got $100 billion that we really could have used chopped off of the stimulus package. Give us that seat and we're at 60.

[mr_genius]

But, he was also one of the key votes that got $100 billion that we really could have used chopped off of the stimulus package. Give us that seat and we're at 60.

 

I guess that wasn't good enough for his constituents. maybe he should voted against the whole thing. he was a key vote to getting that monstrosity passed.

Edited April 25, 2009 by mr_genius