Mets & White Sox Have Been Talking...

[santo=dorf]

I think we'd need something in addition to Beltran if we are giving up both Jenks and Vazquez.

$$$

[Sox It To Em]

I think trading Bobby for a solid return would be the smartest thing this organization could ever do.

 

I have to agree. I love Bobby as much as the next guy, but if trading him can net you a monster package or an elite player, it makes too much sense to not trade him.

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

I have to agree. I love Bobby as much as the next guy, but if trading him can net you a monster package or an elite player, it makes too much sense to not trade him.

 

Nobody knows this more than KW. Anybody that thinks he'll let a closer the caliber of Bobby go on the cheap hasn't been paying attention the last 5 years or so.

[Wanne]

Ozzie Smith and Garry Templeton were traded . Hanley Ramirez was traded. Renteria was pretty highly thought of when Florida traded him. Miguel Cabrera, just last year. was thought of as much,if not more than, Reyes. I know none of those guys were on a team with the Mets revenue but i'm just saying,it's not like great players never get moved. I agree,Reyes probably won't be on the Sox, but it's not an impossiblity. Especially with a team with the picthing mess the Mets are. YOu can't tell me the Mets wouldn't even consider a package of Jenks, Danks, Javy for Reyes.

 

You can't be serious?!? Danks?!?...uhhhhhhh no.

[greg775]

Jenks had a BAA of .230 averaging 5.5 k per 9 innings

Dotel had a BAA of .208 averaging 12.3 k per 9 innings.

 

He was far from quite hittable most of the time.

 

Look, you can throw out all the numbers you want. The eyes don't lie.

Jenks: Got people out. Got saves. Got applause.

Dotel: Made people sick to their stomachs with his abysmal pitching. Dotel, with all due respect, is a joke. Not as bad as MacDougal or Sisco or the other Royal hack we put in games, of course, but a joke noneheless.

Thornton as closer? Maybe (though he'll break out hearts some nights, many more nights than Bobby), but NOT DOTEL.

[Wanne]

Look, you can throw out all the numbers you want. The eyes don't lie.

Jenks: Got people out. Got saves. Got applause.

Dotel: Made people sick to their stomachs with his abysmal pitching. Dotel, with all due respect, is a joke. Not as bad as MacDougal or Sisco or the other Royal hack we put in games, of course, but a joke noneheless.

Thornton as closer? Maybe (though he'll break out hearts some nights, many more nights than Bobby), but NOT DOTEL.

 

Ya know greg...for as down as I've been on Dotel at times this season...I'm not so sure he wouldn't be a decent closer. Actually he may be better suited for that role. I know he'd come in and immediately walk the first guy or give up a dinger at times this season. But for some reason I think he has more a closer's mentality.

[Kalapse]

Look, you can throw out all the numbers you want. The eyes don't lie.

Jenks: Got people out. Got saves. Got applause.

Dotel: Made people sick to their stomachs with his abysmal pitching. Dotel, with all due respect, is a joke. Not as bad as MacDougal or Sisco or the other Royal hack we put in games, of course, but a joke noneheless.

Thornton as closer? Maybe (though he'll break out hearts some nights, many more nights than Bobby), but NOT DOTEL.

I do agree with you on this one, fiery conjecture is much more valuable than an opinion based in statistics and reason.

[caulfield12]

I think with Dotel, we'd have a 65-75% conversion rate, as opposed to Jenks at 85%.

 

The question is will the player we get back in return for Jenks allow us to make up those 3-5 "lost" victories and blown games in other ways?

 

I'll let the VORP and Bill James statistics types analyze that one. Historically, it has been better to invest money in other areas than in relief pitchers...and the White Sox have gotten away with not paying any big-time closers. The one we did bring in, Koch, was the biggest disaster of all our closers over the last decade.

[beautox]

KW is in love with Reyes. .297, 16 HR, and 56 SBs. Yep that would solve our leadoff hitter hole for sure. I would even consider trading Jenks and Vazquez in a mega deal for Reyes and maybe Murphy. But then again im just dreaming out loud here. Im not sayin im just sayin. Having Reyes ontop of our lineup for many years is druel worthy!

 

That would be epic, move Che to CF

 

S Reyes SS

L Murphy 2B

R Quentin RF

L Thome DH

R Konerko 1B

S Swisher LF

R Ramirez CF

L AJP C

R Fields 3B

 

Going into '10, either fields busts out or he busts; going around the diamond.

 

DH - Konerko

C - AJP

1B - Fields/Swisher

2B - Murphy

SS - Reyes

3B - Beckham

LF - Swisher/Danks/Ramirez

CF - Ramirez/Danks

RF - Quentin

[Kalapse]

I think with Dotel, we'd have a 65-75% conversion rate, as opposed to Jenks at 85%.

Either you're mistaken here or you believe Dotel would be epically bad in the closers role.

 

Last year 26 pitchers saved at least 18 games, of these 26 men only 4 finished with a SV% below 80%: Billy Wagner 79.41% (injured), Kevin Gregg 76.32% (horrible), Jon Rauch 75% (fill-in) and Huston Street 72% (removed) . The average SV% of the 26 was 85.60% and Brandon FREAKING Lyon finished at 83.87%.

 

So yeah, if Dotel is going to finish with a SV% below 75% then it's probably not a good idea to thrust him into such a role.

[caulfield12]

That would be epic, move Che to CF

 

S Reyes SS

L Murphy 2B

R Quentin RF

L Thome DH

R Konerko 1B

S Swisher LF

R Ramirez CF

L AJP C

R Fields 3B

 

Going into '10, either fields busts out or he busts; going around the diamond.

 

DH - Konerko

C - AJP

1B - Fields/Swisher

2B - Murphy

SS - Reyes

3B - Beckham

LF - Swisher/Danks/Ramirez

CF - Ramirez/Danks

RF - Quentin

 

That would be great, but there's no way they will take Vazquez instead of Danks/Floyd.

 

You have to begin with Jenks, Floyd and then one more piece (not Alexei Ramirez)

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I love Jose Reyes as much as anyone, but that's kind of a waste IMO. If we were going to trade one of Floyd/Danks - and caulfield is right, we're not getting a player the caliber of Reyes without trading one of those guys - then I'd rather shop around since we already have a pretty sweet SS on board. I mean, we could probably get Prince Fielder with that package and who knows what else. Alex Rios would be an option if he's available (whom I love and is signed through 2015 at a well below market rate), plus if the Jays for some reason do shop Halladay as had been rumored during the deadline then he'd be an option... I mean there would be so much out there we would be able to acquire for Floyd/Danks + Jenks that would fit better overall than Jose Reyes.

[beautox]

I love Jose Reyes as much as anyone, but that's kind of a waste IMO. If we were going to trade one of Floyd/Danks - and caulfield is right, we're not getting a player the caliber of Reyes without trading one of those guys - then I'd rather shop around since we already have a pretty sweet SS on board. I mean, we could probably get Prince Fielder with that package and who knows what else. Alex Rios would be an option if he's available (whom I love and is signed through 2015 at a well below market rate), plus if the Jays for some reason do shop Halladay as had been rumored during the deadline then he'd be an option... I mean there would be so much out there we would be able to acquire for Floyd/Danks + Jenks that would fit better overall than Jose Reyes.

 

Floyd + Jenks for Reyes and Murphy, would you pull the trigger?

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Floyd + Jenks for Reyes and Murphy, would you pull the trigger?

Yes, most definitely. We'd be getting the best player in the deal. I'd still try to get Halladay or Rios first though.

[beck72]

I would do the Jenks + Vazquez for Beltran and cash deal. You then place Beltran in the leadoff spot. Getz/ Nix could then hit #2. The sox could then move Swisher for pitching.

 

 

[Lemon_44]

Floyd + Jenks for Reyes and Murphy, would you pull the trigger?

in a second.

[Lemon_44]

You can't be serious?!? Danks?!?...uhhhhhhh no.

I probably wouldn't do that trade either but i was making a point that Reyes,or anyone for that matter, is tradeable if someone wants to give up alot.

[Kyyle23]

I do agree with you on this one, fiery conjecture is much more valuable than an opinion based in statistics and reason.

 

LMAO

[BearSox]

I do agree with you on this one, fiery conjecture is much more valuable than an opinion based in statistics and reason.

I like your sig.... It shows off Beckham's wrist and forearms.

[BearSox]

I would do the Jenks + Vazquez for Beltran and cash deal. You then place Beltran in the leadoff spot. Getz/ Nix could then hit #2. The sox could then move Swisher for pitching.

No, you don't put Beltran in the leadoff spot. You need to take advantage of his run producing ability and put him somewhere in the middle of the lineup. I'd personally bat him cleanup behind Quentin.

[caulfield12]

Dotel career save numbers...most of them prior to surgery when he had a 94-97 MPH fastball with the Astros and A's.

 

83 saves

36 blown saves

 

Conversion rate=69.7%

 

I don't expect anything higher than 70% out of Dotel, not after the way he pitched last season for us in many critical situations.

[3E8]

I think with Dotel, we'd have a 65-75% conversion rate, as opposed to Jenks at 85%.

 

The question is will the player we get back in return for Jenks allow us to make up those 3-5 "lost" victories and blown games in other ways?

 

I'll let the VORP and Bill James statistics types analyze that one. Historically, it has been better to invest money in other areas than in relief pitchers...and the White Sox have gotten away with not paying any big-time closers. The one we did bring in, Koch, was the biggest disaster of all our closers over the last decade.

By win shares, Jenks has never been worth 5 wins just by himself for a whole season. The top position player on our team has been anywhere from 3-6 wins more valuable than Bobby during his time here. A trade of Jenks at this point in his career should be considered as we have at least two to three gaps in our lineup right now

[daa84]

Dotel career save numbers...most of them prior to surgery when he had a 94-97 MPH fastball with the Astros and A's.

 

83 saves

36 blown saves

 

Conversion rate=69.7%

 

I don't expect anything higher than 70% out of Dotel, not after the way he pitched last season for us in many critical situations.

thats extremely misleading because dotel has spent so much time as a middle reliever....middle relievers are eligible to get blown saves in 7th or 8th innings, but obviously almost never pitch the 9th, thus never get the actual save

[3E8]

Dotel career save numbers...most of them prior to surgery when he had a 94-97 MPH fastball with the Astros and A's.

 

83 saves

36 blown saves

 

Conversion rate=69.7%

 

I don't expect anything higher than 70% out of Dotel, not after the way he pitched last season for us in many critical situations.

Are you including saves/blown saves from situations in which Dotel was a setup man? They should be omitted

[Dick Allen]

Dotel career save numbers...most of them prior to surgery when he had a 94-97 MPH fastball with the Astros and A's.

 

83 saves

36 blown saves

 

Conversion rate=69.7%

 

I don't expect anything higher than 70% out of Dotel, not after the way he pitched last season for us in many critical situations.

Very misleading considering he's been a set-up guy most of his career. If you want to look at it that way Thornton has 5 career saves and 16 blown. I think he'd be a good bet to convert more than 25%. Linebrink has 5 career saves and 29 blown. Dotel was a primary closer for really 1+ season after his phenomenal run as a Houston set-up guy and converted about 80%, and his ERA with Oakland was higher than it was with the White Sox last year. We don't know the circumstances of his appearances so it would be hard to judge exactly what to expect, but to say his career rate is 69.7% and say he's lost a lot of his fastball, so expect worse is wrong. Its amazing how a guy with a .208 BAA averaging 12.36 k/9 innings gets so much grief. Granted he had several bad outings, but he must of been pretty good sometimes.

Edited November 9, 2008 by Dick Allen