Piracy around the Horn of Africa

[lostfan]

Really? I see post after post after post after post after post by these same people who think foreign folks should have the same exact rights as our citizens. When the equation comes out in a different circumstance, well, then, we step over the line?

You're asking me?

[StrangeSox]

Really? I see post after post after post after post after post by these same people who think foreign folks should have the same exact rights as our citizens. When the equation comes out in a different circumstance, well, then, we step over the line?

 

What does that have to do with this situation? Our citizens would have been treated the exact same way in a hostage situation.

[lostfan]

Congrats to the Prez for acting. But why only after being asked twice by the DOD? And then only if the life of the Captain was at risk? Wasn't the Captain's life at risk the minute he was forced onto the enclosed raft?

 

The important thing is the Prez acted and we were sucessful in rescuing this Captain. Maybe, just maybe we put some doubt into the heads of these knuckleheads........but,.....I doubt it...

What do you mean? I heard the DoD asked twice and he approved both times. I'll wait to see what Secretary Gates has to say (one of the few people in government I feel is almost always honest).

[kapkomet]

You're asking me?

No. It's the point.

 

 

Of course, that was before I read the rest of the thread... it is true that "liberals" cannot take the same thing they've been dishing for 8 years. How dare the Messiah get questioned!

 

[southsider2k5]

No, it would be hypocrisy if I had been one that would bash Bush for something he had zero to do with (like this situation), and then complained when others do the same. I am saying, its childish, why do it?

 

And I wouldn't call it flipping out - I've watched the nonsense for three months, seen it go well beyond what I saw almost anyone in here do to Bush, being done by the same people who called it bad then... that, is hypocrisy.

 

I disagree totally. There hasn't been NEARLY as much volume joking done about Obama, as was done about Bush. It hasn't even been close. There also hasn't been nearly the critisism of Obama here that was seen under Bush by a significant margin. I think the biggest difference is the volume of those who can't handle it is louder under Obama than it was under Bush.

[kapkomet]

What does that have to do with this situation? Our citizens would have been treated the exact same way in a hostage situation.

These pirates have U.S. citizen rights, you know...

[lostfan]

I disagree totally. There hasn't been NEARLY as much volume joking done about Obama, as was done about Bush. It hasn't even been close. There also hasn't been nearly the critisism of Obama here that was seen under Bush by a significant margin. I think the biggest difference is the volume of those who can't handle it is louder under Obama than it was under Bush.

Ratio of liberals to conservatives here is like 3 to 1.

 

edit: also, holy s***, not this argument again. Can we have one week go by without doing this?

Edited April 13, 2009 by lostfan

[southsider2k5]

Ratio of liberals to conservatives here is like 3 to 1.

 

edit: also, holy s***, not this argument again. Can we have one week go by without doing this?

 

I would imagine if people weren't so easily offended by anything negative to do with Obama, the arguements wouldn't keep happening.

[lostfan]

These pirates have U.S. citizen rights, you know...

Well, they're dead now.

 

It's refreshing to have the administration not try to unnecessarily glamorize it by painting it as a "terrorist" incident, though.

Edited April 13, 2009 by lostfan

[kapkomet]

Ratio of liberals to conservatives here is like 3 to 1.

 

edit: also, holy s***, not this argument again. Can we have one week go by without doing this?

I think a lot of us let a hell of a lot roll off when it came to GWB. It's because we knew he was wrong a lot. Obama is NEVER wrong. That's the picture being painted, and it's hypocritical. Furthermore, as SS said, it's HI-LAR-IOUS when Comedy Show, or anyone else mocks anything "conservative". When something gets mocked about other stances, panties get bunched up here faster then the ShamWow dude with a hooker. It's interesting to watch the squirming because the criticism is just too much for a liberal to take. Well, hell, welcome to the club, since that's all that has been done to conservatives for YEARS. People get paid a hell of a lot of money in the name of "comedy" but when the opposite happens, it's blaspheme on a message board? is my response to that.

[lostfan]

I would imagine if people weren't so easily offended by anything negative to do with Obama, the arguements wouldn't keep happening.

What about the people who are easily offended by the people who are easily offended? Which will certainly offend the original group of easily offended.

 

lol. It's always the other side's fault and everybody wants to be the victim, nobody ever admits to being complicit or contributing to anything negative. But that's politics, so I guess I'm naive to think that this will ever change and people will start thinking and functioning like me.

[bmags]

kap being a victim!?

[kapkomet]

kap being a victim!?

Yes, I'm becoming a Democrat for the day.

 

[Soxbadger]

Really? I see post after post after post after post after post by these same people who think foreign folks should have the same exact rights as our citizens. When the equation comes out in a different circumstance, well, then, we step over the line?

 

Come on, you think that US citizens would have been treated any different in a hostage stand off?

 

Perhaps you should ask the Branch Davidian compound how nice they were treated because they were US citizens...

 

I think you are confusing the argument of how "alleged" foreign terrorists are being treated, with an argument of how actual foreign pirates are being treated.

 

When you catch some one in the act, they are no longer "alleged" and when you are in hot pursuit the same rules dont apply.

 

But then again, that is the same in the US, so not sure what the argument is.

Edited April 13, 2009 by Soxbadger

[kapkomet]

Come on, you think that US citizens would have been treated any different in a hostage stand off?

 

Perhaps you should ask the Branch Davidian compound how nice they were treated because they were US citizens...

 

I think you are confusing the argument of how "alleged" foreign terrorists are being treated, with an argument of how actual foreign pirates are being treated.

 

When you catch some one in the act, they are no longer "alleged" and when you are in hot pursuit the same rules dont apply.

 

But then again, that is the same in the US, so not sure what the argument is.

The original post was called sarcasm.

 

[Kyyle23]

Politics aside, Im really curious how this is going to play out. These pirates already have 200+ hostages at this moment, if they start killing these people, countries around the world are going to get pissed at the US and French and blame them for instigating a reaction. To me, this was just waiting to happen as soon as they became bold enough to take a US ship

[lostfan]

Politics aside, Im really curious how this is going to play out. These pirates already have 200+ hostages at this moment, if they start killing these people, countries around the world are going to get pissed at the US and French and blame them for instigating a reaction. To me, this was just waiting to happen as soon as they became bold enough to take a US ship

Maybe, but what do the pirates really have to gain if they kill the hostages? That's their bargaining chip, and if all they want is money, that possibility goes away if they don't have the hostage anymore. Plus if they start acting all uppity, it's more than just the U.S. that will smack them back down.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Politics aside, Im really curious how this is going to play out. These pirates already have 200+ hostages at this moment, if they start killing these people, countries around the world are going to get pissed at the US and French and blame them for instigating a reaction. To me, this was just waiting to happen as soon as they became bold enough to take a US ship

 

My response to those countries would be to shut up and do something about it then. Yes, i worry for the 200+ current captives and hope the Somali pirates (who are basically terrorists in a different form) do not take out their "revenge on the US" on them. However, if that happens those countries should not blame us for a second. We did what was necessary to secure the freedom and release of one of our citizens (props to you Mr. Obama for taking a stand I doubt many in your party would have done). All these foreign countries need to realize that by continuously paying their ransom demands only leads to more and more hijackings (is that an applicable word for a pirate seizure?).

 

This is quickly becoming a serious issue, and the world needs to start addressing it more seriously. Not just the pirates but Somalia in general. Not just the U.S either, but there needs to be an international effort to fix that f*** up of a country. But thats another issue. Anyways, my thoughts are with all those currently held captive by the Somali pirates and hope nothing bad becomes of them.

 

Also, i'm so glad that they arrested one of the pirates and he wasnt killed...I'm sure he'll be treated real well in an American prison once the prison populace finds out why he is there

[Soxbadger]

If it was sarcasm, so be it.

 

Didnt seem very sarcastic to me, and its pretty similar to other arguments ive heard from conservatives/republicans, so I apologize if I didnt see the intended sarcasm.

 

Its nice to know that you agree that the US should treat everyone equally.

 

[Cknolls]

Politics aside, Im really curious how this is going to play out. These pirates already have 200+ hostages at this moment, if they start killing these people, countries around the world are going to get pissed at the US and French and blame them for instigating a reaction. To me, this was just waiting to happen as soon as they became bold enough to take a US ship

 

 

Then those countries should get better armed forces to respond in kind. No sympathy here.

[Kyyle23]

Maybe, but what do the pirates really have to gain if they kill the hostages? That's their bargaining chip, and if all they want is money, that possibility goes away if they don't have the hostage anymore. Plus if they start acting all uppity, it's more than just the U.S. that will smack them back down.

 

i dont know, I see the cargo as the bargaining chips more than the hostages(in the eyes of the businesses, not my personal belief). These Pirates are taking huge supply shipments worth millions

[kapkomet]

If it was sarcasm, so be it.

 

Didnt seem very sarcastic to me, and its pretty similar to other arguments ive heard from conservatives/republicans, so I apologize if I didnt see the intended sarcasm.

 

Its nice to know that you agree that the US should treat everyone equally.

Seriously, what I do think is that these guys do have a right to a trial. I do think that they have a right to be brought up on charges or let go. I do NOT think that they should be tried in a US courts and have rights that a US citizen would have. And they are different.

 

[lostfan]

Seriously, what I do think is that these guys do have a right to a trial. I do think that they have a right to be brought up on charges or let go. I do NOT think that they should be tried in a US courts and have rights that a US citizen would have. And they are different.

To me the whole crux of the issue is if you are innocent, or at least want to argue that you're innocent, you should be allowed to. The severity of the charges against the person aren't relevant, that's pure emotion when people argue against that. Without this, the justice system is a banana republic mockery, and the government can prosecute anyone they want.

 

I favored some sort of military tribunal system but I think the SCOTUS shot that down.

[Balta1701]

Seriously, what I do think is that these guys do have a right to a trial. I do think that they have a right to be brought up on charges or let go. I do NOT think that they should be tried in a US courts and have rights that a US citizen would have. And they are different.

Here's the actual question then...what body has the authority to try the survivor? Somalia itself doesn't even have a court system, they haven't had a government in 20 years. Current law is essentially out of date because no one has had to deal with pirates as a major problem in such a long time. Current extant law would have exactly what you don't want; pirates captured by a country would be tried by the country that captured them or that they had attacked. In this case, they'd attacked a U.S. flagged ship, were captured/killed by the U.S., so the only option currently in the law would be for the U.S. to try them.

 

Unless, of course, the U.S. were to acknowledge the legitimacy of an international body, like the International Criminal Court. Which is of course what I'd prefer, but the U.S. has refused to participate in that court because of the fact that it could someday try U.S. citizens for things like ordering or committing torture and other war crimes.

[Balta1701]

I favored some sort of military tribunal system but I think the SCOTUS shot that down.

The SCOTUS has shot down the Bush Administration's travishamockery of military tribunals, where evidence obtained under torture was allowed, where there was no appeal, where the government got to play both judge and prosecutor, where 95% of the evidence was withheld from the defense, etc. They have not shut down the military court system. The issue currently is that the military court system has no jurisdiction here unless it is given jurisdiction by Congress.