4/16 Games

[southsider2k5]

I never said MacDougal was pretty good. I said the majority of his major league career he's been pretty good. The point being when someone sucks, it doesn't always take a certain amount of innings to determine he sucks. Hence Marquez. If he was as good as KW said in the press conference when he was acquired, what has happened to him in 5 innings in AAA would never have happened.

 

Wait if a guy is good, he can't have 5 bad innings? How does that make any sense?

[scenario]

You are the one arguing sample size. Not me. Its a good thing Marquez isn't in the Sox rotation right now.

 

I'm the one.... what?

 

Your Mac analysis made it look like he only had 17 innings last year. I was only pointing out that if was really 65 innings when you take into account his minor league time.

 

The minor league time is very relevant, because if was able to get the ball across the plate consistently, he would have been in Chicago rather than Charlotte. But he couldn't find home plate with a GPS which is THE reason he only had 17 innings in MLB last year.

[Dick Allen]

I'm the one.... what?

 

Your Mac analysis made it look like he only had 17 innings last year. I was only pointing out that if was really 65 innings when you take into account his minor league time.

 

The minor league time is very relevant, because if was able to get the ball across the plate consistently, he would have been in Chicago rather than Charlotte. But he couldn't find home plate with a GPS which is THE reason he only had 17 innings in MLB last year.

And the reason Marquez has 5 innings in 2 starts is because he was awful. He was awful last year in AAA as well.

 

I went with MacDougals innings because I was saying the majority of his major league career, he's been pretty good. So the innings are relevant. I know he blows. I'm really not even defending him. I was using him as an example that you can determine a guy isn't very good after not so many innings, even if he has had major league success which MacDougal has had. The guy made an All Star team and it was deserved.I'm just saying you don't need 1000's of innings to determine a guy isn't very good, and Marquez obviously isn't as good as he was advertised.

 

How many innings will Marquez have to pitch in order to determine he isn't very good?

Edited April 17, 2009 by Dick Allen

[Dick Allen]

Wait if a guy is good, he can't have 5 bad innings? How does that make any sense?

If a guy is bad they get lit up in AAA like Marquez did last year and so far this year. He's certainly not what KW said he was. He was supposed to be in the major league rotation. I still like the Swisher trade. Marquez's minor league career WHIP is 1.40. I don't think that transfers well to the American League, but you believe everything KW tells you so I'm sure you're of a different opinion, although KW loves Anderson and gave up decent prospects for MacDougal.

Edited April 17, 2009 by Dick Allen

[Jordan4life_2007]

Brian Anderson gets bashed if he makes an out his first AB and actually gets close to having a game blamed on him when the team lost 9-0 and he whiffed with guys on second and third with one out in the fifth inning. Never mind Carlos Quentin struck out with a guy on 3rd and one out in the first. The bashing is beyond ridiculous. Its worse than the Uribe bashing. BA will shut everyone up however in due time.

 

No, BA gets bashed because he's flat sucked with the bat. That's all we've seen from him. That's all we know. You've come to the conclusion that Marquez sucks because of last year and 5 innings this year. See where the double standard comes in? And I hope you're right. I still consider myself a BA fan (although I've soured on him considerably since 2006).

[Dick Allen]

No, BA gets bashed because he's flat sucked with the bat. That's all we've seen from him. That's all we know. You've come to the conclusion that Marquez sucks because of last year and 5 innings this year. See where the double standard comes in? And I hope you're right. I still consider myself a BA fan (although I've soured on him considerably since 2006).

Its one thing for someone to suck in AAA, its another when they don't hit when they are a rookie with a defending champion and after that not hitting while playing extremely infrequently. There is no double standard.

[maggsmaggs]

We would have more innings to work with (maybe like 12-13) if Marquez didn't get bombed. The fact is, we are never gonna get a great sample sized of him if he can't get past two innings. Dude blows.

[Dick Allen]

We would have more innings to work with (maybe like 12-13) if Marquez didn't get bombed. The fact is, we are never gonna get a great sample sized of him if he can't get past two innings. Dude blows.

That's what were arguing against here. If he makes 20 starts and goes 45 innings, the sample size will still be too small. At least you can call a spade a spade. Marquez is not very good.

 

KW compared him to Garland a guy he signed to over $35 million worth of contract. It was an obvious overestimation of Jeff's abilities.

Edited April 17, 2009 by Dick Allen

[Jordan4life_2007]

Its one thing for someone to suck in AAA, its another when they don't hit when they are a rookie with a defending champion and after that not hitting while playing extremely infrequently. There is no double standard.

 

I see. So we're still at blaming BA's failures offensively on infrequent at-bats? Well maybe if he didn't struggle to hit his weight he'd get more frequent at-bats? And it's no mystery to why he's so bad with the bat. He's got a horrific swing that really hasn't improved much if at all since 2006.

[scenario]

KW compared him to Garland a guy he signed to over $35 million worth of contract. It was an obvious overestimation of Jeff's abilities.

 

I think you're making too big a deal out of the Garland comparison.

 

I think the point was simply that he's a sinker ball pitcher (like Garland) who doesn't strike alot of guys out (like Garland)... and the comparison was made to show that type of pitcher can have success in USCF because they don't generate alot of fly balls.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

I see. So we're still at blaming BA's failures offensively on infrequent at-bats? Well maybe if he didn't struggle to hit his weight he'd get more frequent at-bats? And it's no mystery to why he's so bad with the bat. He's got a horrific swing that really hasn't improved much if at all since 2006.

Not many young players thrive when sitting for long stretches. Even the best hitters struggle if they haven't been playing for a while. His swing is long, but hardly as horrific as whats been posted on this board. I'm one who thinks some consistent playing time will do wonders for his swing. As awful as he was, in July and August of 2006 he hit .300. There's something there. It just may take a while for it to come out, but I'm with everyone else, if he gets consistent time and doesn't hit, then move on or at least know that he's a 4th or 5th OF, but finding out at the expense of Jerry Owens and Dewayne Wise, when he's healthy, is a very small price to pay.

 

Ironically, people like Wise when he's not leading off. What had he shown at BA's age? Its not like its some huge loss he is out. The only time in the majors he's had a .300 OBP is when he had 5 AB. If he was drafted by the White Sox, soxtalk would have bashed him to oblivion.

Edited April 17, 2009 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

If a guy is bad they get lit up in AAA like Marquez did last year and so far this year. He's certainly not what KW said he was. He was supposed to be in the major league rotation. I still like the Swisher trade. Marquez's minor league career WHIP is 1.40. I don't think that transfers well to the American League, but you believe everything KW tells you so I'm sure you're of a different opinion, although KW loves Anderson and gave up decent prospects for MacDougal.

 

I love that you bash me for agreeing with everything Kenny Williams does while I slam Mike MacDougal. Judging by the way you hate on Kenny, I think there is a little bit of deflection going on. I think it is funny that a guy who gets so mad about the arrogance of Williams is convinced he knows better than him. There is a nice irony there.

 

Marquez hasn't been very good, there is no arguement there. But to say a guy can't pitch because of five innings is just silly, especially when a few posts ago you were on someone for using 17 innings as too small of a sample size. Now that is some circular logic!

[Dick Allen]

I love that you bash me for agreeing with everything Kenny Williams does while I slam Mike MacDougal. Judging by the way you hate on Kenny, I think there is a little bit of deflection going on. I think it is funny that a guy who gets so mad about the arrogance of Williams is convinced he knows better than him. There is a nice irony there.

 

Marquez hasn't been very good, there is no arguement there. But to say a guy can't pitch because of five innings is just silly, especially when a few posts ago you were on someone for using 17 innings as too small of a sample size. Now that is some circular logic!

Once again I never used anything as "too small a sample size". I used the innings because I was showing majority which I claimed MacDougal has been pretty good the majority of his career, and you said no.I don't hate on Kenny, I disagree with several of his projections. You never disagree. Using MacDougal sucks is probably your only example, and I'm sure if you asked KW right now he would tell you MacDougal sucks.

 

I'm sure you still think Marquez is Jon Garland II, just like KW said. Maybe they should try to buy out some of his arb years while he's struggling at AAA. He'd probably jump at it.

[FedEx227]

The Swisher/Marquez trade is definitely not looking very good right now. Obviously, we wanted nothing to do with Swisher but you wonder if this buying high selling REAL low was a good idea. You could have just kept him for another year if anything.

[Dick Allen]

The Swisher/Marquez trade is definitely not looking very good right now. Obviously, we wanted nothing to do with Swisher but you wonder if this buying high selling REAL low was a good idea. You could have just kept him for another year if anything.

Swisher will have some awful stretches. He always does. By the end of the year, Swisher will probably have better numbers than Betimet, but you probably wouldn't want his contract if you actually have a budget.

[southsider2k5]

Once again I never used anything as "too small a sample size". I used the innings because I was showing majority which I claimed MacDougal has been pretty good the majority of his career, and you said no.I don't hate on Kenny, I disagree with several of his projections. You never disagree. Using MacDougal sucks is probably your only example, and I'm sure if you asked KW right now he would tell you MacDougal sucks.

 

I'm sure you still think Marquez is Jon Garland II, just like KW said. Maybe they should try to buy out some of his arb years while he's struggling at AAA. He'd probably jump at it.

 

So if you weren't saying something was a small sample size, why mention that MM only pitched 17 innings in 2008? What point were you trying to make there?

 

Calling Kenny arrogant repeatedly is your way of showing him love I take it, explain that one to me as well.

 

I disagree plenty. You just choose to ignore it because it makes an easy arguement instead of the usual odd circular logic. Making it personal is much easier.

 

For example... I hated the McCarty/Danks trade when it was made. I hated calling up Jenks when it happened. I wish we would have traded Brian Anderson years ago. I didn't like Josh Fields, I would have traded him after 06. I didn't like the back up catcher situation coming into this year... I could keep going if you like...

[caulfield12]

Don't like the way Thome and Ramirez look, or how big Jenks has gotten.

 

Well, I remember when Matt Guerrier was traded for Damaso Marte, their GM AND McClendon were gloating about how Guerrier was the "next Greg Maddux" and how they were going to have to release Marte anyway because he was out of options and they already had their lefty set-up guys. We all know how that trade worked out.

 

Nice prediction there Pirates phools.

 

Actually, the Pirates missed out (twice, once on Marte, who'd already been with the Yankees and M's) because they didn't realize he (Guerrier) could be a decent long man and 6th/7th inning guy. Of course, it took the Twins to pick up on that.

 

As far as Marquez goes, the true proof in the pudding will come when they have to use him or Richard at some point when Contreras or Colon go down.

 

We all know Charlotte is a "hitter's park," just like BIRM is a "pitcher's park," so let's just give him a year in our system before we jump to premature evaluations. The point with letting Garland and Vazquez go is that KW felt there was a decent opportunity to approximate those numbers from someone like Richard or Marquez at league minimum.

 

Second point, the trade is really Viciedo and Betemit for Swisher, forget about Marquez and Jhonny Nunez.

Edited April 17, 2009 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

So if you weren't saying something was a small sample size, why mention that MM only pitched 17 innings in 2008? What point were you trying to make there?

 

Calling Kenny arrogant repeatedly is your way of showing him love I take it, explain that one to me as well.

 

I disagree plenty. You just choose to ignore it because it makes an easy arguement instead of the usual odd circular logic. Making it personal is much easier.

 

For example... I hated the McCarty/Danks trade when it was made. I hated calling up Jenks when it happened. I wish we would have traded Brian Anderson years ago. I didn't like Josh Fields, I would have traded him after 06. I didn't like the back up catcher situation coming into this year... I could keep going if you like...

Show one of your posts disagreeing with a KW move at the time it was made. I mentioned 17 innings because when he was good he pitched 70 innings. 70 out of 87 is a majority. The whole argument started because it was said it was crazy to say Marquez sucks after 5 innings. I mentioned MacDougal because there has been plenty of criticism and deservedly so for his 4 innings of work this season. 17 last, 11 another year you said he was bad. If he's bad for 28 innings but good for 70, wouldn't he be good the majority of his career? When is the sample size too small? I'm the one not being selective here. KW is arrogant, but I've complimented him plenty. I still love the Swisher trade. I loved he got rid of Vazquez without having to eat any money, and got 1 really nice prospect for him. But his little "we do things differently than others, no one understands us, thats OK with us" act is fake modesty, I find it hard anyone doesn't see it.

[winninguglyin83]

Marquez is garbage.

 

We better hope Nunez comes through or we really got fleeced in that deal, other than dumping Swishie's salary.

[NorthSideSox72]

Marquez is garbage.

 

We better hope Nunez comes through or we really got fleeced in that deal, other than dumping Swishie's salary.

Even if Marquez is a dud, which we can't possibly say yet, its still a good deal for the Sox. Removing Swisher's salary got us Viciedo, which alone is worth it. But we also got Nunez, and Betemit, who I think we'll see put up better numbers than Swish come the end of the year. We did have to give up Kanekoa unfortunately, but still a good deal for the Sox.

 

[fathom]

Even if Marquez is a dud, which we can't possibly say yet, its still a good deal for the Sox. Removing Swisher's salary got us Viciedo, which alone is worth it. But we also got Nunez, and Betemit, who I think we'll see put up better numbers than Swish come the end of the year. We did have to give up Kanekoa unfortunately, but still a good deal for the Sox.

 

How is Betemit going to put up better numbers than Swisher. Swisher's a lock to play 140 games now...Betemit, if he's lucky, will play 50.

[NorthSideSox72]

How is Betemit going to put up better numbers than Swisher. Swisher's a lock to play 140 games now...Betemit, if he's lucky, will play 50.

Relative numbers, not gross. But I also think its likely that Swisher may not start all year either.

 

[southsider2k5]

I never said MacDougal was pretty good. I said the majority of his major league career he's been pretty good. The point being when someone sucks, it doesn't always take a certain amount of innings to determine he sucks. Hence Marquez. If he was as good as KW said in the press conference when he was acquired, what has happened to him in 5 innings in AAA would never have happened.

 

So you must really hate Wang...

[Dick Allen]

So you must really hate Wang...

 

I'm a White Sox fan, I couldn't care less about the Yankees problems, but Johnny Damon doesn't apper to like Wang much:

 

We have six losses on the year right now and he's got three of them," Damon said. "And in all three of those games, we've been blown out and we've had to go to our bullpen. So maybe our bullpen's not sharp the following days. So I don't know what more to say, but hopefully he can figure it out because it'd be tough to keep on going like this."

Edited April 19, 2009 by Dick Allen