Sox had best returns on draft picks from 1989-1993

[maggsmaggs]

Article as a whole was very interesting, but Ohlendorf graduated from Princeton, and is apparently a genius. He says Frank Thomas was the key to the White Sox's best rate of return, which he wrote in his senior thesis.

 

So based on the assumptions I made in my paper, the A's signing Giambi was the biggest winner in top-100 picks of the 1989 through 1993 drafts because he played extremely well in his first six years of major league service,'' Ohlendorf said. "The White Sox did the best job in these drafts, with an internal rate of return of 217 percent. Their best signing was Frank Thomas.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/stor...&id=4230662

 

Maybe not PH worthy, but there was the nice Sox mention.

[RME JICO]

Giambi the best net return on investment for BALCO? A nice collection of PED users on there too.

[Kyyle23]

We did get some palyers in those years. Still makes me mad about the srikre in 1994. That could have been our year.

 

It was The Sox and Montreal that year, all the way

[Jordan4life_2007]

We did get some palyers in those years. Still makes me mad about the srikre in 1994. That could have been our year.

 

Best White Sox team I've seen in my 18 years as a fan. Unquestionably better than the '05 team, IMO.

[lostfan]

We did get some palyers in those years. Still makes me mad about the srikre in 1994. That could have been our year.

I was 12, this scarred me until almost the end of that decade. I was devastated. I couldn't tell you much about baseball from the middle of the 90s.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I was 12, this scarred me until almost the end of that decade. I was devastated. I couldn't tell you much about baseball from the middle of the 90s.

 

I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really hate to admit this knowing what we know now. But the McGwire/Sosa HR chase was pretty instrumental in getting me back into baseball hardcore style. After the '94 strike, like a lot of people, I just lost that love I had for the game. I still followed the Sox and baseball in general. But nothing like before the strike. But those two cheating fools brought the love back.

 

[knightni]

The reason the Sox got so much out of their 1987-1990 drafts was that they sucked soooo bad from '86 to '89 in order to get those picks.

 

Comiskey averaged under 4,000 people some nights while their best pitcher of 1989 won 11 games and finished under .500.

 

1986 - 72-90 got Jack McDowell #5

1987 - 77-85 got Robin Ventura #10

1988 - 71-90 got Frank Thomas #7

1989 - 69-92 got Alex Fernandez #4

 

 

 

 

[witesoxfan]

The reason the Sox got so much out of their 1987-1990 drafts was that they sucked soooo bad from '86 to '89 in order to get those picks.

 

Comiskey averaged under 4,000 people some nights while their best pitcher of 1989 won 11 games and finished under .500.

 

1986 - 72-90 got Jack McDowell #5

1987 - 77-85 got Robin Ventura #10

1988 - 71-90 got Frank Thomas #7

1989 - 69-92 got Alex Fernandez #4

 

You are going to be hard-pressed to find any team that can have that kind of luck with 4 straight top 10 draft picks. Jack McDowell won a Cy Young and 91 games with the Sox in 7 seasons, Robin Ventura was a top 5 or 10 3Bman of the past 25 years, Frank Thomas is one of the greatest hitters of all time, and Alex Fernandez was incredible until shoulder troubles ruined his career.

 

The Pirates have had top 10 draft picks for years, and they haven't produced a player even close to that caliber yet.

 

Since 1994 and excluding anything after 2006 (thats 12 first round picks), the Pirates have picked past 15th twice (1998 and 2000) and have had seven top 10 picks. Those top 10 picks were Chad Hermanson, Kris Benson, JJ Davis, Bobby Bradley, John Van Benschoten, Bryan Bullington, and Paul Maholm. The jury is still out on Alvarez, Moskos, and Lincoln, which is why they were not included, but I can almost guarantee that none of them can replicate their counterpart (Moskos and Lincoln to Fernandez and McDowell, and Alvarez to either Ventura or Thomas).

 

 

[CanOfCorn]

I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really hate to admit this knowing what we know now. But the McGwire/Sosa HR chase was pretty instrumental in getting me back into baseball hardcore style. After the '94 strike, like a lot of people, I just lost that love I had for the game. I still followed the Sox and baseball in general. But nothing like before the strike. But those two cheating fools brought the love back.

 

You aren't the only one. And it's why Selig turned the other cheek. Don't feel bad.

[Dick Allen]

I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really hate to admit this knowing what we know now. But the McGwire/Sosa HR chase was pretty instrumental in getting me back into baseball hardcore style. After the '94 strike, like a lot of people, I just lost that love I had for the game. I still followed the Sox and baseball in general. But nothing like before the strike. But those two cheating fools brought the love back.

I read a study on the Sosa/McGwire saving baseball and the truth was it was total BS. In 1998 when they had their run at history attendance was up about 7 million from 1997, but there were 2 new teams that drew about 6 million between them. So there was an increase of about 1 million from 97 which was less than increase between 96 and 97. Attendance actually dipped in 99. So the whole saving baseball crap is just that. It does bother me now as much as I dislike Sosa and McGwire, the villians they are made out to be now when it was so "obvious" they were doing steroids. How come no one, not baseball, not fellow players, not the media, not the fans called them out when this was happening if it was so obvious?

Edited June 8, 2009 by Dick Allen

[WCSox]

You are going to be hard-pressed to find any team that can have that kind of luck with 4 straight top 10 draft picks. Jack McDowell won a Cy Young and 91 games with the Sox in 7 seasons, Robin Ventura was a top 5 or 10 3Bman of the past 25 years, Frank Thomas is one of the greatest hitters of all time, and Alex Fernandez was incredible until shoulder troubles ruined his career.

 

You're going to be even more hard-pressed to have access to those players on draft day when you're winning 81, 83, and 86 games every year.

 

Not only is the Pirates' front office completely incompetent, but they eventually trade away their high draft picks that do pan out.

 

[GreatScott82]

The reason the Sox got so much out of their 1987-1990 drafts was that they sucked soooo bad from '86 to '89 in order to get those picks.

 

Comiskey averaged under 4,000 people some nights while their best pitcher of 1989 won 11 games and finished under .500.

 

1986 - 72-90 got Jack McDowell #5

1987 - 77-85 got Robin Ventura #10

1988 - 71-90 got Frank Thomas #7

1989 - 69-92 got Alex Fernandez #4

Wow, those were some impressive picks.

 

Hopefully we will have a nice string of picks going this time around as well.

 

2007- Aaron Poreda #25

2008- Gordon Beckham #8

2009- ??? #23

2010- With the way this team is playing, I could see us having a top 10 pick next year also.

[Dick Allen]

You're going to be even more hard-pressed to have access to those players on draft day when you're winning 81, 83, and 86 games every year.

 

Not only is the Pirates' front office completely incompetent, but they eventually trade away their high draft picks that do pan out.

In 2004, the Sox had 5 picks before Hunter Pence was picked in the second round. They took Fields, Whisler, Gio, Lucy and another stiff. There have been plenty of players available that were a lot better than what they selected. Their draft was terrible. How is it Boston, which usually picks after the White Sox calls up guys like Pedroia, Ellsbury, Paplebon......................

[Chisoxfn]

What have you done for me lately and thus far the past 10 years have been an epic disaster. Even last year where the Sox struck what might be gold on a few guys (Danks/Hudson/Beckham/Carter), you still have to realize how f***ing bad there 3rd round pick was (he would have been there 5 rounds later probably) and than the Kenny Jr pick were.

 

Those two picks alone were utter f***ing disgraces. I also know that when the Sox last had a ton of picks, everyone raved about there draft but again ignores the fact that we reached on numerous players in that draft as well.

 

The Sox history is to be cheap. Look at what they pay compared to what the other guys in the round get and you'll be incredibly dissapointed and well, it makes sense given the lack of minor league talent we've seen make it to the majors the past 10 or so years.

 

I'm hoping things are getting better though, but we shall see.

[WCSox]

In 2004, the Sox had 5 picks before Hunter Pence was picked in the second round. They took Fields, Whisler, Gio, Lucy and another stiff. There have been plenty of players available that were a lot better than what they selected. Their draft was terrible. How is it Boston, which usually picks after the White Sox calls up guys like Pedroia, Ellsbury, Paplebon......................

 

I'm not claiming that the Sox draft wisely. I'm claiming that teams who suck for several years on end and have several Top 10 picks, have a significantly higher chance of landing a Frank Thomas or a Jack McDowell. If the Twins hadn't gone 69-93 in 2000, there's no way that they would've landed Mauer (or had a shot at Prior).

 

 

[Dick Allen]

I'm not claiming that the Sox draft wisely. I'm claiming that teams who suck for several years on end and have several Top 10 picks, have a significantly higher chance of landing a Frank Thomas or a Jack McDowell. If the Twins hadn't gone 69-93 in 2000, there's no way that they would've landed Mauer (or had a shot at Prior).

Even when the Sox drafted high they were lucky. Himes wanted Mike Harkey but the Cubs took him so they had to settle for Black Jack. They wanted Jeff Jackson, but Philadelphia took him so they wound up with Frank Thomas. Somehow, despite his pretty swing and unreal college numbers, Ventura lasted 10 picks, with the Cubs, looking for a 3rd baseman forever taking Ty Griffin right before him, and Fernandez was available because he didn't sign when he was previously drafted.

Edited June 8, 2009 by Dick Allen

[SI1020]

I read a study on the Sosa/McGwire saving baseball and the truth was it was total BS. In 1998 when they had their run at history attendance was up about 7 million from 1997, but there were 2 new teams that drew about 6 million between them. So there was an increase of about 1 million from 97 which was less than increase between 96 and 97. Attendance actually dipped in 99. So the whole saving baseball crap is just that. It does bother me now as much as I dislike Sosa and McGwire, the villians they are made out to be now when it was so "obvious" they were doing steroids. How come no one, not baseball, not fellow players, not the media, not the fans called them out when this was happening if it was so obvious?

Oh McGwire was called out all right, but the reporter that broke the McGwire andro story was shouted down by a very angry mob. Baseball and it's public didn't want to hear about it back then. Of course the Canseco revelations and the sudden appearance of a cyborg who used to be Barry Bonds changed all that. McGwire andro story ignored

[Dick Allen]

Where the 2008 All-Stars came from

 

First round 22

Second round 8

Third round 3

Rounds 3-10 7

Rounds 11-25* 7

Latin American free agents 14

Japanese free agents 2

Independent leagues 1

 

[WCSox]

Even when the Sox drafted high they were lucky. Himes wanted Mike Harkey but the Cubs took him so they had to settle for Black Jack. They wanted Jeff Jackson, but Philadelphia took him so they wound up with Frank Thomas. Somehow, despite his pretty swing and unreal college numbers, Ventura lasted 10 picks, with the Cubs, looking for a 3rd baseman forever taking Ty Griffin right before him, and Fernandez was available because he didn't sign when he was previously drafted.

 

I won't dispute the fact that Himes was lucky to nab those four guys in consecutive seasons. Himes also traded for Wilson Alvarez and acquired Roberto Hernandez, so it's not like he was some mediocre GM who fell ass-backwards into dumb luck.

 

I also don't know how Himes supposedly wanting Mike Harkey or Jeff Jackson is public knowledge, or if that information is accurate.

 

[WCSox]

Oh McGwire was called out all right, but the reporter that broke the McGwire andro story was shouted down by a very angry mob. Baseball and it's public didn't want to hear about it back then. Of course the Canseco revelations and the sudden appearance of a cyborg who used to be Barry Bonds changed all that. McGwire andro story ignored

 

Most likely because Andro was legal and available at GNC back then. There's speculation that McGwire intentionally placed the bottle there to deflect attention from what he was really taking.

 

[Dick Allen]

I won't dispute the fact that Himes was lucky to nab those four guys in consecutive seasons. Himes also traded for Wilson Alvarez and acquired Roberto Hernandez, so it's not like he was some mediocre GM who fell ass-backwards into dumb luck.

 

I also don't know how Himes supposedly wanting Mike Harkey or Jeff Jackson is public knowledge, or if that information is accurate.

I've read it from a few sources several years ago. To me, Larry Himes was a baseball genius, at least a farm system genius. The only reason he was canned was a personal dislike from JR who couldn't stand him. I believe Himes also drafted Baldwin, Bere and Ray Durham in the 5th round of the 1990 draft so he was able to get guys later who were good players even though the first round picks in 87,88,89 were really the entire extent of his draft haul.

Edited June 8, 2009 by Dick Allen

[WCSox]

I've read it from a few sources several years ago.

 

I take whatever I read or hear about who a GM supposedly wants with a massive load of salt. I imagine that quite a bit of leaked information is false and intentionally leaked to throw off other GMs.

 

To me, Larry Himes was a baseball genius, at least a farm system genius. The only reason he was canned was a personal dislike from JR who couldn't stand him. I believe Himes also drafted Ray Durham in the 5th round of the 1990 draft so he was able to get guys later who were good players.

 

Yeah, I've heard quite a bit about Himes' personality. Too bad, because he knew what he was doing. Roland Hemond wasn't bad either.

 

[Dick Allen]

I take whatever I read or hear about who a GM supposedly wants with a massive load of salt. I imagine that quite a bit of leaked information is false and intentionally leaked to throw off other GMs.

 

 

 

Yeah, I've heard quite a bit about Himes' personality. Too bad, because he knew what he was doing. Roland Hemond wasn't bad either.

Roland's selection of Kurt Brown one pick before Barry Bonds is memorable. The White Sox haven't exactly been known for their drafts except for the Himes era. I wonder if any team had 4 consecutive #1's that were able to contribute as quickly as those 4. It really was incredible.

[SI1020]

Most likely because Andro was legal and available at GNC back then. There's speculation that McGwire intentionally placed the bottle there to deflect attention from what he was really taking.

I suppose that's possible but most conspiracy theories are BS. Yes, andro was legal, but that plus the massive McGwire physique could have and should have raised eyebrows. I remember well the intense media hype in 98. No one wanted to break up the party.

 

[WCSox]

I suppose that's possible but most conspiracy theories are BS. Yes, andro was legal, but that plus the massive McGwire physique could have and should have raised eyebrows. I remember well the intense media hype in 98. No one wanted to break up the party.

 

According to Canseco, McGwire was juicing way back in the late '80s or early '90s in Oakland. It's not like McGwire became suddenly enormous when after he was traded to the Cardinals in 1997.