Healthcare reform

[StrangeSox]

Are you really telling me that with the option of changing to something completely cheaper and less work for them, that most private corporations won't drop their private plans and force their employees into government plans? You really don't believe in profit motivation this much dispite the obvious economic history's shown all over the place?

 

Thank you. There is not choice in the current system. This was just a roundabout way of having you make that point for me.

[kapkomet]

Thank you. There is not choice in the current system. This was just a roundabout way of having you make that point for me.

There isn't? Wow. You can choose to work, or not. Or get health care, or not. Or get an individual plan instead of that nice IPhone, or not. Whatever. The choice is yours. Instead, let's all get cattle driven into one plan and encourage NO competition. Woot!

[Balta1701]

There isn't? Wow. You can choose to work, or not. Or get health care, or not. Or get an individual plan instead of that nice IPhone, or not. Whatever. The choice is yours. Instead, let's all get cattle driven into one plan and encourage NO competition. Woot!

If you guys are going to defend this system as "Competition!", then I wish I was around to see how you'd have reacted when the government broke up AT&T.

[kapkomet]

If you guys are going to defend this system as "Competition!", then I wish I was around to see how you'd have reacted when the government broke up AT&T.

AT&T and who else at that time? I listed I think 7 major companies that offer insurance and of course I got dismissed because it's not real competition.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

So your argument therefore is that a public plan would be cheaper for everyone and less work for everyone, and this is therefore a bad thing.

 

Yes, that is totally my argument. You can make it into whatever will fit into your stereotypes.

[Balta1701]

AT&T and who else at that time? I listed I think 7 major companies that offer insurance and of course I got dismissed because it's not real competition.

It's not competition when: you have zero choice over who you get because the individual market is virtually unreachable and 80% of the country's markets are considered "Highly concentrated" by the government's standards.

 

Basically, here's your competition. Exxon and BP own 90% of the gas stations in your city. Your employer has a deal with one of the 2 companies to get gas at it half price, and gets a massive tax subsidy to do so. The other 10% of stations charge 2x as much as the standard price at those stations, and if you go to them, they're likely to turn you away anyway. The one you go to could start putting sugar in their gas tanks becuase they thought it was funny and you'd probably still go there. Slightly different situation because the whole dying-without-care isn't taken up by that analogy, but really, you pretty much go where your employer puts you.

[southsider2k5]

Thank you. There is not choice in the current system. This was just a roundabout way of having you make that point for me.

 

Um, that wasn't what I said at all... But between you and Balta, the circular logic to justify the loss of another freedom is scary.

[lostfan]

There isn't? Wow. You can choose to work, or not. Or get health care, or not. Or get an individual plan instead of that nice IPhone, or not. Whatever. The choice is yours. Instead, let's all get cattle driven into one plan and encourage NO competition. Woot!

It isn't a true free market system at all in its current form, I thought this was more or less settled a couple dozen pages ago.

[bmags]

we can at least all agree that Brett Favre is a piece of s***.

[kapkomet]

It isn't a true free market system at all in its current form, I thought this was more or less settled a couple dozen pages ago.

Very little, especially nowadays, is a true free market. But government control is one way to kill what little competition is left.

 

SS said it a minute ago - and it's sad - those who want this so bad just keep accepting every Obama talking point like it's right on and this is the best thing to ever happen. There are alternatives to start fixing this (hell, let's try addressing the PROBLEMS themselves instead of a complete takeover, what a novel freaking idea that would be). No, can't have that, because liberals have had a hard on for health care since the 1930's and they are the closest they have ever been. They will not give this control up... not like they did in 1993.

 

[HuskyCaucasian]

we can at least all agree that Brett Favre is a piece of s***.

[bmags]

Very little, especially nowadays, is a true free market. But government control is one way to kill what little competition is left.

 

SS said it a minute ago - and it's sad - those who want this so bad just keep accepting every Obama talking point like it's right on and this is the best thing to ever happen. There are alternatives to start fixing this (hell, let's try addressing the PROBLEMS themselves instead of a complete takeover, what a novel freaking idea that would be). No, can't have that, because liberals have had a hard on for health care since the 1930's and they are the closest they have ever been. They will not give this control up... not like they did in 1993.

 

I've heard no solutions from the right besides tort reform and frankly, when states have done that there has been very little change in health care costs. This system is broken, it's causing bankruptcy in businesses and families, and limiting mobility from those afraid to lose health benefits or start new businesses. People aren't choosing to work or not, get health care or an iphone, they are working to get health care and spending absurds amount of income on it, and then might get dropped when an issue arises that they need it most. God save this free market wonder, the American Insurance industry!

[Rex Kickass]

Um, that wasn't what I said at all... But between you and Balta, the circular logic to justify the loss of another freedom is scary.

 

Your point is what Reagan said about Medicare, you know. Do you support eliminating Medicare as well?

[kapkomet]

I've heard no solutions from the right besides tort reform and frankly, when states have done that there has been very little change in health care costs. This system is broken, it's causing bankruptcy in businesses and families, and limiting mobility from those afraid to lose health benefits or start new businesses. People aren't choosing to work or not, get health care or an iphone, they are working to get health care and spending absurds amount of income on it, and then might get dropped when an issue arises that they need it most. God save this free market wonder, the American Insurance industry!

Bloddy hell. I've proposed 4 or 5 ideas myself besides tort reform. But no one wants to hear anything but "government must step in and take this over because it's such a mess". Screw it. No one wants but what the talking points are fed to them by their respective blogs.

[EvilMonkey]

I was just at a town hall in Chanahon about health care reform. The guy there held up the binder with the proposed legislation in it. It was 3" thick and packed full. He was reading from various sections in it. I found one interesting that the bill gives the govt the right to access your bank account electronicly to withdraw funds should you choose to not pay. Another one about how you can 'keep' your employer plan (assuming your employer keeps a plan), but there are to be no new signups. When you leave, you are entered into the government plan. nice choice. There were other things mentioned, but several of the interting ones he didn't reference with sections, so I am waiting to find out more first. The interesting one concerned Obama's little check up squads that come to your house and whether or not you own a firearm.

[kapkomet]

I was just at a town hall in Chanahon about health care reform. The guy there held up the binder with the proposed legislation in it. It was 3" thick and packed full. He was reading from various sections in it. I found one interesting that the bill gives the govt the right to access your bank account electronicly to withdraw funds should you choose to not pay. Another one about how you can 'keep' your employer plan (assuming your employer keeps a plan), but there are to be no new signups. When you leave, you are entered into the government plan. nice choice. There were other things mentioned, but several of the interting ones he didn't reference with sections, so I am waiting to find out more first. The interesting one concerned Obama's little check up squads that come to your house and whether or not you own a firearm.

I've read most of house bill 3200. That is a huge piece of s*** legislation.

 

[southsider2k5]

It isn't a true free market system at all in its current form, I thought this was more or less settled a couple dozen pages ago.

 

Saying we don't have a free market system currently is the same as sayign we don't have free speech because you can't yell fire in a theater, or that you don't have freedom of religion because a principal is going to jail for praying in school.

[southsider2k5]

I've read most of house bill 3200. That is a huge piece of s*** legislation.

 

And don't worry, the night before the vote, 1000 pages will show up out of no where.

[southsider2k5]

Your point is what Reagan said about Medicare, you know. Do you support eliminating Medicare as well?

 

It wouldn't upset me, that's for sure. Especially because the slippery slope of medicare is being used to justify a further erosion of rights.

[StrangeSox]

Um, that wasn't what I said at all... But between you and Balta, the circular logic to justify the loss of another freedom is scary.

 

How is it a loss of a freedom? It'll be just like the current wonderful system that's so full of freedom and choice. Hate the government plan your employer provides? Just switch jobs! It's easy! Or get affordable private insurance.

 

There are very high switching costs for health care insurance customers. This severely limits forces on the industry to provide better service and lower costs. Like I said a page or two ago, I'd be in favor of my company paying me more, getting rid of the health insurance benefit and being able to choose from a variety of plans. Because of a variety of reasons, that's just not a realistic option in today's system.

[Texsox]

I found one interesting that the bill gives the govt the right to access your bank account electronicly to withdraw funds should you choose to not pay.

That's a tough one. Should we really protect the debtor or the holder of the debt? Already medical bills cannot be dropped through a bankruptcy.

[lostfan]

Saying we don't have a free market system currently is the same as sayign we don't have free speech because you can't yell fire in a theater, or that you don't have freedom of religion because a principal is going to jail for praying in school.

Not really unless you consider "take what your employer gives you or drop your employer's insurance and pay out the ass and in the meantime hope you don't lose it when you need it" an actual choice. Can the system be reformed to allow better choices and competition, yes or no? I say yes. Kap laid out a case for it earlier too.

 

Methinks you are so caught up in hating the initial ideas from the government that you're hating everything else by extension.

Edited August 19, 2009 by lostfan

[NorthSideSox72]

Saying we don't have a free market system currently is the same as sayign we don't have free speech because you can't yell fire in a theater, or that you don't have freedom of religion because a principal is going to jail for praying in school.

Ridiculous. The current system in health care provision is nowhere within sniffing distance of competitive capitalism. The intervening presence of insurance providers and the labrynthine provider system allow for no real level of choice at all, other than, basically, insurance or no insurance.

 

The current "solution" provided by Congress may suck donkey balls, but let's not get ridiculous about the current system being so great.

 

[Texsox]

Ridiculous. The current system in health care provision is nowhere within sniffing distance of competitive capitalism. The intervening presence of insurance providers and the labrynthine provider system allow for no real level of choice at all, other than, basically, insurance or no insurance.

 

The current "solution" provided by Congress may suck donkey balls, but let's not get ridiculous about the current system being so great.

 

[Texsox]

Please keep the discussion in the healthcare thread. Maybe we can merge this latter?