Sox interested in Yanks' Brett Gardner

[Kalapse]

Im just putting up his stats and trying to have someone justify why the wouldnt want him and that stat intrigued me.

Even the worst outfielders in baseball can go 1000 innings without making more than 3 errors. Just don't drop any routine flyballs (it's not an error if you miss it entirely) or airmail the catcher and you'll be error free. Jason Bay didn't make a single error last season and Jeremy Hermida made 1, Bay is largely regarded as a bad left fielder and Hermida may be the worst. Should-be designated hitters Carlos Lee and Ryan Braun both made 2.

 

With some really good defensive metrics becoming more widely available across the net it's probably time we retire FLD% especially in regards to outfielders. I just hate it when the Sox acquire a guy like Alex Rios and I have to read in the paper (well the paper's website) about his down year in 2007 when he made an unacceptable 7 errors when in fact he was one of the best outfielder in baseball that season.

[chunk23]

Even the worst outfielders in baseball can go 1000 innings without making more than 3 errors. Just don't drop any routine flyballs (it's not an error if you miss it entirely) or airmail the catcher and you'll be error free. Jason Bay didn't make a single error last season and Jeremy Hermida made 1, Bay is largely regarded as a bad left fielder and Hermida may be the worst. Should-be designated hitters Carlos Lee and Ryan Braun both made 2.

 

With some really good defensive metrics becoming more widely available across the net it's probably time we retire FLD% especially in regards to outfielders. I just hate it when the Sox acquire a guy like Alex Rios and I have to read in the paper (well the paper's website) about his down year in 2007 when he made an unacceptable 7 errors when in fact he was one of the best outfielder in baseball that season.

 

I would say FLD should pretty much be put to pasture for every position. As you said, it's not an error if you don't get to the ball. What if you have absolutely insane range, but can't always come up with the ball as a result? Lots of errors, but still make more plays than the average guy at that position.

[Kalapse]

I would say FLD should pretty much be put to pasture for every position. As you said, it's not an error if you don't get to the ball. What if you have absolutely insane range, but can't always come up with the ball as a result? Lots of errors, but still make more plays than the average guy at that position.

Adrian Beltre and Ryan Zimmerman had 2 of the worst FLD% in baseball this season, anyone care to argue that either is a poor defender?

 

Albert Pujols made 13 errors this season. Now I watch most Cardinals games because there's nothing better than watching that man play baseball and I can tell you that the majority of those errors were made attempting to make plays that basically only he can make at the position.

[2nd_city_saint787]

Adrian Beltre and Ryan Zimmerman had 2 of the worst FLD% in baseball this season, anyone care to argue that either is a poor defender?

 

Albert Pujols made 13 errors this season. Now I watch most Cardinals games because there's nothing better than watching that man play baseball and I can tell you that the majority of those errors were made attempting to make plays that basically only he can make at the position.

 

 

fine bro ill go delete it out of my post jeez

[witesoxfan]

So, what part of my reference to the Sox signing Teahen to a 3 year contract was incorrect?

 

They already had him under team control for 2 years. His contract is essentially a 1-year extension.

[harfman77]

Fangraphs absolutely adores Gardner. His defense, speed, and OBP make him quite valuable.

 

 

 

 

Why would the Yankees want a 3b prospect?

 

A Rod is 35 this year and has had prolonged injuries the last two seasons, by the time Morel is ready A-Rod could be a full time DH.

 

I dont get people not wanting to move Rios to RF because they feel he will be overpaid there, he makes the same amount where ever he plays, and if we were to acquire Gardner our best defensive alignment would be to have Gardner in CF, Rios in right, where they are both top end defensively and a platoon of Jones/Kotsay in LF. Offensively Quentin will be in LF, but with our pitching having both CF and RF manned by elite caliber defenders is worth more than making Rios' contract look good.

[DGSOXFan14]

Jenks to Yankees for Gardner +? How long until Rivera retires?

 

I dont think they would be interested in taking Jenks, as I think that would upset Joba because I honestly think he is what they are planning on grooming into their closer once Mariano retires. I just think he pans out more into that closer role than the starter he wants to be. I might be totally wrong, because the yankees basically take anyone thats decently good, but thats just my opinion.

[witesoxfan]

Rivera said shortly after the World Series that he'd be fine pitching for another 5 years

[Rowand44]

The idea is actually growing on me. Gardner has displayed some ability to draw a walk, has some speed, and can actually use that speed on the bases. I haven't seen picked off numbers at all, but he seems like a very good buy low candidate. I want nothing to do with him as the opening day CFer, but I don't think it's impossible for him to put up .280/.360/.380 over a full season. My main problem, as was with the Erstad signing, is that Gardner would be thrust into the CF and leadoff (or #2) position immediately, rather than actually playing him to the role that he needs to be played (which would be the backup outfielder role).

You wouldn't take those numbers from a leadoff hitter at this point? I know I certainly would. A move like this would make a lot of sense to me.

[witesoxfan]

You wouldn't take those numbers from a leadoff hitter at this point? I know I certainly would. A move like this would make a lot of sense to me.

 

I would love those numbers, but he'd have to prove it first. Hence why I wouldn't want him thrust into the role.

[Dick Allen]

DA, you are also dismissing the defensive impact Gardner would have on our lineup. Having a solid defensive outfield would make our good pitching staff even better.

The White Sox are going to have to score runs. I understand Beckham will be around a little longer. Its hoped Quentin comes back strong. Its also hoped Rios returns to what he was in 2006-7 and that the past couple seasons were offensive flukes for Teahan. The offense was ranked near the bottom. A lot of the production, Thome, Dye the first half of the year, Pods, are gone. Replacing them with guys like Gardner and Andruw Jones even if a couple of the things we are hoping for come true isn't going to make the White Sox an offensive juggernaut. As I have posted, Gardner wouldn't be a bad guy to have on the roster, but to say he's the regular CF and leadoff hitter is just asking for dissappointment. If he was that guy, NY wouldn't give up the players they did and pay Granderson what they will have to pay if they thought he would be as good as this board thinks he will be. He's a 4th or 5th OF.

[Lemon_44]

let's face it nobody on here can say with certainty if he's the anwer or not. You can't draw any conclusions on his limited time.But, the fact is, he's better than anything we currently have in the leadoff role, which is nothing. Personally, i would like to see what he could do in the leadoff spot for an entire year. I doubt KW gives up anything of major significance for him. Maybe Retherford and lower level pitching prospect with nice potential would do it. Maybe the Yanks take a flier on Linebrink bouncing back.I think there's a decent chance that could happen and the Yankees have gotten rid of Kennedy and Bruney so there's some holes in their bullpen and money is no issue for them.

[Ranger]

Now explain to me why that is at all relevant. Why the number of errors an outfielder is charged with means anything. It's high time we stop using fielding percentage as a measure of a player's defensive worth, especially an outfielder.

 

The numbers say he's been a very good defender in his short time in the majors but that has nothing to do with FLD%.

 

 

I would say FLD should pretty much be put to pasture for every position. As you said, it's not an error if you don't get to the ball. What if you have absolutely insane range, but can't always come up with the ball as a result? Lots of errors, but still make more plays than the average guy at that position.

 

 

Errors are significant when combined with other statistics...it isn't a completely, absolutely meaningless stat. If a fielder has below average range but makes few errors, that means something. It means he won't screw up most of the plays that he's supposed to make but he's also not going to do well out of zone. If he has poor range and makes a lot of errors, that also means something. It means he's an absolutely a lousy fielder.

 

let's face it nobody on here can say with certainty if he's the anwer or not. You can't draw any conclusions on his limited time.But, the fact is, he's better than anything we currently have in the leadoff role, which is nothing. Personally, i would like to see what he could do in the leadoff spot for an entire year.

 

That's pretty much how I feel.

[Dick Allen]

let's face it nobody on here can say with certainty if he's the anwer or not. You can't draw any conclusions on his limited time.But, the fact is, he's better than anything we currently have in the leadoff role, which is nothing. Personally, i would like to see what he could do in the leadoff spot for an entire year. I doubt KW gives up anything of major significance for him. Maybe Retherford and lower level pitching prospect with nice potential would do it. Maybe the Yanks take a flier on Linebrink bouncing back.I think there's a decent chance that could happen and the Yankees have gotten rid of Kennedy and Bruney so there's some holes in their bullpen and money is no issue for them.

In May and June last season he had 100 AB and hit .330. The rest of the year in about 150 AB his OBP was below .300. I really think people should take a closer look before saying he's the answer at the top of the order for a team that is trying to win a championship. Linebrink has a NTC. I really doubt teams are willing to pick of the freight of his contract.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Dick Allen

[Kalapse]

Errors are significant when combined with other statistics...it isn't a completely, absolutely meaningless stat. If a fielder has below average range but makes few errors, that means something. It means he won't screw up most of the plays that he's supposed to make but he's also not going to do well out of zone. If he has poor range and makes a lot of errors, that also means something. It means he's an absolutely a lousy fielder.

 

That's pretty much how I feel.

Of course errors aren't meaningless -- subjective and easily manipulated sure but not meaningless -- that's why UZR incorporates errors. With that said you learn absolutely nothing from looking at an outfielder's fielding percentage.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

In May and June last season he had 100 AB and hit .330. The rest of the year in about 150 AB his OBP was below .300. I really think people should take a closer look before saying he's the answer at the top of the order for a team that is trying to win a championship. Linebrink has a NTC. I really doubt teams are willing to pick of the freight of his contract.

We're not really looking at any "answers" though. Matsui has been getting the love around here, and he's a great hitter, but what if he wants 3 years guaranteed and time in LF? That would absolutely blow. Coco Crisp? Better than Pods, but no sure thing and not much of a solution. Jordan Danks? Hell no. At least Gardner offers 5 years of control including 2 pre-arb years plus defense and speed, and has the downside of a cheap 4th OF. He shouldn't cost a ton either, so at least if we go after him we're attempting to add a cheap piece that could prove beneficial both now and in the future without giving up one of our best prospects.

 

Agree on Linebrink. We either have to eat lots of money or take on a similar bad contract or worse.

[macsandz]

They already had him under team control for 2 years. His contract is essentially a 1-year extension.

 

So, what part of my reference to the Sox signing Teahen to a 3 year contract was incorrect?

[SkokieSox]

The White Sox are going to have to score runs. I understand Beckham will be around a little longer. Its hoped Quentin comes back strong. Its also hoped Rios returns to what he was in 2006-7 and that the past couple seasons were offensive flukes for Teahan. The offense was ranked near the bottom. A lot of the production, Thome, Dye the first half of the year, Pods, are gone. Replacing them with guys like Gardner and Andruw Jones even if a couple of the things we are hoping for come true isn't going to make the White Sox an offensive juggernaut. As I have posted, Gardner wouldn't be a bad guy to have on the roster, but to say he's the regular CF and leadoff hitter is just asking for dissappointment. If he was that guy, NY wouldn't give up the players they did and pay Granderson what they will have to pay if they thought he would be as good as this board thinks he will be. He's a 4th or 5th OF.

It's not like the Yankees have never been wrong.

[witesoxfan]

So, what part of my reference to the Sox signing Teahen to a 3 year contract was incorrect?

 

The fact that you assumed it was 3 years of him beyond his free agency years. If you, absolutely, in your heart, knew that, then I forgive you. I tend to doubt it.

[beck72]

let's face it nobody on here can say with certainty if he's the anwer or not. You can't draw any conclusions on his limited time.But, the fact is, he's better than anything we currently have in the leadoff role, which is nothing. Personally, i would like to see what he could do in the leadoff spot for an entire year. I doubt KW gives up anything of major significance for him. Maybe Retherford and lower level pitching prospect with nice potential would do it. Maybe the Yanks take a flier on Linebrink bouncing back.I think there's a decent chance that could happen and the Yankees have gotten rid of Kennedy and Bruney so there's some holes in their bullpen and money is no issue for them.

Very true. He is affordable, has tools for the leadoff role, is major league ready, and has upside [probably 1 year or more ahead of Jordan Danks]. IMO, it's a decent bet that Gardner can outperform a guy like Coco Crisp for 1/2 the cost.

 

The Yanks could probably use Carrasco. They haven't gotten prospects in many deals. If the Sox can't afford his arb. raise, him in a package for Gardner would make sense.

[Kyyle23]

Very true. He is affordable, has tools for the leadoff role, is major league ready, and has upside [probably 1 year or more ahead of Jordan Danks]. IMO, it's a decent bet that Gardner can outperform a guy like Coco Crisp for 1/2 the cost.

 

The Yanks could probably use Carrasco. They haven't gotten prospects in many deals. If the Sox can't afford his arb. raise, him in a package for Gardner would make sense.

 

How so?

[SockMe]

so anything to this rumor?

[PWSox87]

He's among the fastest 2 or 3 guys in the majors, possibly the fastest and that translates to stolen bases bc he's good at that too. He's worth about a half win to a full win on the bases alone (a win = 10 runs above average). In the field, he is among the best center fielders in mlb. All the fielding numbers say he's top 3 CF minus his whack arm. He's pretty much a slap hitter, ops'd around .850 for his minor league career but that doesn't seem reachable in the bigs bc he can be over powered by fastballs. Overall 5 years of control of him would appeal to me a lot and I think the yanks under value him bc so much of his value is tied to his defense. he looks to be comfortably a 2.5-3.5 win player, which means he is a legit starting OF and upgrade for the white sox.

[Kalapse]

He's among the fastest 2 or 3 guys in the majors, possibly the fastest and that translates to stolen bases bc he's good at that too. He's worth about a half win to a full win on the bases alone (a win = 10 runs above average). In the field, he is among the best center fielders in mlb. All the fielding numbers say he's top 3 CF minus his whack arm. He's pretty much a slap hitter, ops'd around .850 for his minor league career but that doesn't seem reachable in the bigs bc he can be over powered by fastballs. Overall 5 years of control of him would appeal to me a lot and I think the yanks under value him bc so much of his value is tied to his defense. he looks to be comfortably a 2.5-3.5 win player, which means he is a legit starting OF and upgrade for the white sox.

There isn't nearly enough of a sample size to start making statements like this. 789 innings? Really?

[PWSox87]

There isn't nearly enough of a sample size to start making statements like this. 789 innings? Really?

 

yes