AJ's "intangibles"

[NorthSideSox72]

I love how so many people completely ignore AJ's actual contributions in Major League Baseball and then talk about all the things Tyler Flowers is going to do. Opening the 2011 season with Flowers as the starting catcher is a major downgrade and a major disappointment and should be viewed as such. Now I love AJ, but I'd back Kenny if he went after one of the Angels' starters for example I'd back him if he made another move that made sense, any sense at all. Tyler Flowers does not make sense on any level in any universe.

Hyperbole much?

 

[Milkman delivers]

Hyperbole much?

 

Haha, exactly. I don't think I've seen anyone blowing up Flowers. In fact, it seems that everyone is expecting a very minimal contribution from him. We're all very down on his prospects, at least for next season.

[Balta1701]

Haha, exactly. I don't think I've seen anyone blowing up Flowers. In fact, it seems that everyone is expecting a very minimal contribution from him. We're all very down on his prospects, at least for next season.

It'd be really nice if we could turn over the catching spot to him next season and get a low .700's OPS out of him (i.e. similar to what AJ gave us most years), but even the optimist here (me) wouldn't bet the farm on that one. He might have just had a really bad year and might recover instantly...but I'd say he's much more likely to look like Brandon Wood if he came up and was just given the job right now.

[southsider2k5]

Haha, exactly. I don't think I've seen anyone blowing up Flowers. In fact, it seems that everyone is expecting a very minimal contribution from him. We're all very down on his prospects, at least for next season.

 

No one has really been positive on Flowers for at least a season now.

[Texsox]

Flowers instead of AJ next season is a major enhancement for those people who care more about the Sox making money than winning games.

[NorthSideSox72]

Flowers instead of AJ next season is a major enhancement for those people who care more about the Sox making money than winning games.

Straw man. No one fits that description except people financially invested in the team.

 

[RockRaines]

Flowers instead of AJ next season is a major enhancement for those people who care more about the Sox making money than winning games.

Or for those who think the money can be spent elsewhere on better production.

[Balta1701]

Or for those who think the money can be spent elsewhere on better production.

That is the key question. Thank you for phrasing that so succinctly; I couldn't figure out how I wanted to say that.

[Texsox]

Or for those who think the money can be spent elsewhere on better production.

 

 

I forgot, it's like the money that was saved to get a DH this past season. When we never truly know the bottom line, it's all a guess. Maybe the difference between AJ and no Aj is the difference between a $20 mil profit or a $10 mil profit. And I'm really not that interested.

[Paint it Black]

Intangibles are worthless. Especially when your average and on base% are nearly one in the same.

[Dick Allen]

Intangibles are worthless. Especially when your average and on base% are nearly one in the same.

Did you know the Texas Rangers, the AL Champions, catchers hit .212 and had an OPS nearly 100 points lower than AJ? Working with a pitching staff is THE most important thing a catcher does. The days of Ivan Rodriquez-like steroid-fueled numbers are ova.

Edited November 7, 2010 by Dick Allen

[3E8]

It all varies by team, by pitching staff. The World Series champion Giants were 19 games over 500 with Posey, and this is mostly due to his bat, not intangibles

[Balta1701]

It all varies by team, by pitching staff. The World Series champion Giants were 19 games over 500 with Posey, and this is mostly due to his bat, not intangibles

I dunno, that Giants pitching staff didn't really hit their stride until the latter part of the year either. Of course...that could be a function of Lincecum changing his workout routine/realizing he needed to lay off the "stuff" for the pennant race too.

[NorthSideSox72]

It all varies by team, by pitching staff. The World Series champion Giants were 19 games over 500 with Posey, and this is mostly due to his bat, not intangibles

You have no real idea if that's true or not. Giants pitching did awfully well.

 

[3E8]

You have no real idea if that's true or not. Giants pitching did awfully well.

In a previous thread you had no real idea or not if the Tigers would be spending money this offseason, yet said they would not be anyway without providing any evidence for your claim.

 

Going by OPS against and WHIP, the Giants' pitching staff 3 worst months were 3 of the 4 months that Posey was behind the plate (June, July, August). Their pitching staff had an unreal Sept/Oct (.543 OPS against, 0.945 WHIP) which really improved their overall 2nd half numbers. Their bullpen also got bolstered by bringing Ramirez over from Boston after Posey took over catching.

 

Posey was the 2nd/3rd best bat on a team that was below average in scoring runs. His OPS was over 150 points higher than the aggregate of other NL catchers. The offensive value he provided is obvious. There is no clear link between Posey and Giants pitching performance. Without a full season catching a major league staff and not actually becoming a catcher until college, it's probably safe to say Posey hasn't had enough time to really hone his game calling/managing skills yet. Like I said all instances are different, but in this case Posey's bat was of greater value than his "intangibles".

[NorthSideSox72]

In a previous thread you had no real idea or not if the Tigers would be spending money this offseason, yet said they would not be anyway without providing any evidence for your claim.

 

Going by OPS against and WHIP, the Giants' pitching staff 3 worst months were 3 of the 4 months that Posey was behind the plate (June, July, August). Their pitching staff had an unreal Sept/Oct (.543 OPS against, 0.945 WHIP) which really improved their overall 2nd half numbers. Their bullpen also got bolstered by bringing Ramirez over from Boston after Posey took over catching.

 

Posey was the 2nd/3rd best bat on a team that was below average in scoring runs. His OPS was over 150 points higher than the aggregate of other NL catchers. The offensive value he provided is obvious. There is no clear link between Posey and Giants pitching performance. Without a full season catching a major league staff and not actually becoming a catcher until college, it's probably safe to say Posey hasn't had enough time to really hone his game calling/managing skills yet. Like I said all instances are different, but in this case Posey's bat was of greater value than his "intangibles".

OK first, there is a huge difference between analyzing what's happened, and guessing what will happen in the future. I was quite clear about DET and the word that has been seen in articles that they are not likely to have much money to spend, but that obviously, its a guess. So I fail to see the relevance here.

 

The stats you quote are telling though - you are probably right that he's not very strong in that area yet. But you also fail to include what I'd consider the mutliplier here. He's catching pitchers 9 innings, 4 out of every 5 days, give or take. He's hitting +/- 4 times a game. Whatever benefit a catcher provides in catching is by nature of multiple times as much value as his bat. If he is decent behind the plate overall (pitcher handling, game calling, defense, throwing runners out, etc.), then that has more value to a team than even a very plus bat, IMO.