Ozzie says "rotating closers" in an article today.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news...x_cid=nhffromfb

 

I like that better

 

If you need Thornton in the 8th, use him, and then you still have whatever out of Crain, Santos, and Sale to close the game out.. same thing the other way..

 

I like that better

 

If you need Thornton in the 8th, use him, and then you still have whatever out of Crain, Santos, and Sale to close the game out.. same thing the other way..

If the problem with these guys is the "Closer's mentality", then having no defined closer will just make things worse, because no one's going to know who's taking the ball coming into the game.

If the problem with these guys is the "Closer's mentality", then having no defined closer will just make things worse, because no one's going to know who's taking the ball coming into the game.

Or having the Closer label attached causes too much pressure. In the past all Matt had to do was get guys out and now his job is to close games. Maybe it's a pressure issue and Oz is trying to loosen up the responsibility and ease him into it...or Sale absolutely rolls with it and the problem is solved.

As long as Thornton doesn't keep blowing it, he'll get the vast majority of the save situations. Ozzie's never liked to use his closer 5 days a week; this is just his way of saying it. Also, with so many (potentially) good relievers, I think this means Ozzie is going to try not to overwork any one of them.

I vote that we should score enough runs that we are never in save situations. Voila!

Someone in the game thread last night mentioned a stat where Matt Thornton has more blown saves in his career than saves. Insane. How the f*** can we keep trotting him out there in that role?!?!

I wonder what the record is for consecutive blown saves. People may want to blame Pierre, and he should have caught the ball,no doubt, but that hanging slider he threw would have been a HR if anyone with any semblence of power was at the plate. The guy was an All-Star as a setup man. Put him back in the role he's best suited. I think he will get moved out of the closer role seeing as how quickly Ozzie pulled him. Even after blowing a save, it seems Oz usually let Jenks finish out the inning.

Someone in the game thread last night mentioned a stat where Matt Thornton has more blown saves in his career than saves. Insane. How the f*** can we keep trotting him out there in that role?!?!

 

Because he has phenomenal peripherals and there are stats there to prove it. Unfortunately there isn't a stat out there that confirms the size of one's cojones.

 

Kenny and co didn't think about mental aspect of closing when giving Thornton his extension and appointed him the closer.. Note that I absolutely agree that Thornton has earned it based on his past performance as the best set up man in the game. Unfortunately contracts are given based on past not future performance. Now I'm not saying Thornton will suck from now on, but I sure hope this seasons fiasco won't affect him and Ozzie will put him back in the set up man spot, while a closer emerges from the duo of Santos - Sale.

Someone in the game thread last night mentioned a stat where Matt Thornton has more blown saves in his career than saves. Insane. How the f*** can we keep trotting him out there in that role?!?!

 

That's cause he pitched in the 7th/8th inning for so long. When you blow a game in the 8th, it counts as a blown save. But if you keep the lead and then the closer comes in, you get credit for a hold but it doesn't count as a save opportunity.

 

His stats say 17 saves, 24 blown saves, which is an awful 41.5%. But if you include his holds & saves, it's more like 122 holds/saves, 24 blown saves, which is 83.6%. Not the best either, but way different than under 50%

 

That's cause he pitched in the 7th/8th inning for so long. When you blow a game in the 8th, it counts as a blown save. But if you keep the lead and then the closer comes in, you get credit for a hold but it doesn't count as a save opportunity.

 

His stats say 17 saves, 24 blown saves, which is an awful 41.5%. But if you include his holds & saves, it's more like 122 holds/saves, 24 blown saves, which is 83.6%. Not the best either, but way different than under 50%

And you don't get a Hold for a game where you come in while it's tied or while you're down by 1 either.

The bullpen,yikes!

Someone in the game thread last night mentioned a stat where Matt Thornton has more blown saves in his career than saves. Insane. How the f*** can we keep trotting him out there in that role?!?!

 

The save stat for a career set up man? I hope this is supposed to be green.

And you don't get a Hold for a game where you come in while it's tied or while you're down by 1 either.

 

I would bet he has also come in with runners on base far more often then a typical closer would which also drastically increases the chances of getting a blown save.

Thornton's 17 for 41 blows Crain's career 3 for 16 out of the water!

One of the reasons Jesse Crain wanted out of Minnesota... he wanted to go somewhere he thought he'd get more closing opportunities.

 

Just thought I'd throw that in to the equation.

Can anyone recall a lights-out closer who transitioned from an extended, multi-year "apprenticeship" as a set up man, like Thornton? I honestly can not (I thought maybe the Nasty Boys, but I think they were mostly always interchangeable). There have got to be a few, but it seems like most of the best either got thrown right into the fire, converted from starting, or set up for no more than a year. Latroy Hawkins has been cited here as an example of a failed transition, and I'm wondering how often it’s done successfully.

 

As has been said, I think there is a huge difference between innings 7-8 and 9, and mental intangibles (or just plain gonads) are a key to closing. Unfortunately, they have to be tested under fire, and 0 for your first 3 = a failing grade.

 

I don't care if people are dropping balls. Both balls were smashed deep. It's happening on Matt's watch every time so far and pretty soon this will reach unacceptable status with me. We gotta get the roles settled here and the only way to do that is sending Thornton out there until he proves with certainty the he can or cannot handle the role. That's 3 wins already down the toilet.

Can anyone recall a lights-out closer who transitioned from an extended, multi-year "apprenticeship" as a set up man, like Thornton? I honestly can not (I thought maybe the Nasty Boys, but I think they were mostly always interchangeable). There have got to be a few, but it seems like most of the best either got thrown right into the fire, converted from starting, or set up for no more than a year. Latroy Hawkins has been cited here as an example of a failed transition, and I'm wondering how often it’s done successfully.

 

As has been said, I think there is a huge difference between innings 7-8 and 9, and mental intangibles (or just plain gonads) are a key to closing. Unfortunately, they have to be tested under fire, and 0 for your first 3 = a failing grade.

 

Roberto Hernandez set up for Thigpen?

 

Mariano rivera set up for Wetteland?

 

I do agree that there is a huge difference between 7-8 and 9. It mostly mental but the ones who can overcome the mental pressure are the ones who are sccessful.

Can anyone recall a lights-out closer who transitioned from an extended, multi-year "apprenticeship" as a set up man, like Thornton? I honestly can not (I thought maybe the Nasty Boys, but I think they were mostly always interchangeable). There have got to be a few, but it seems like most of the best either got thrown right into the fire, converted from starting, or set up for no more than a year. Latroy Hawkins has been cited here as an example of a failed transition, and I'm wondering how often it’s done successfully.

 

As has been said, I think there is a huge difference between innings 7-8 and 9, and mental intangibles (or just plain gonads) are a key to closing. Unfortunately, they have to be tested under fire, and 0 for your first 3 = a failing grade.

 

So gonads is a key to closing but not coming in in the 7th inning of a run game with the bases loaded? With the way Thornton is pitching right now he would be struggling just as much in the 7th or 8th as in the 9th. He isn't locating his pitches and his velocity is down.

Everyone loves his 95 mph fastball, but really Thornton has never been more than the best situational lefty in baseball. There's great value in that. It just doesn't make you a closer.

 

Thornton's career OPS+ against with:

 

Bases empty: 88

RISP: 123(!!)

Roberto Hernandez set up for Thigpen?

 

Mariano rivera set up for Wetteland?

 

 

Both of them came to my mind too, but I checked and they only set up briefly (a season or so). Just enough to smooth out rough edges and gain some big-league experience. Not long enough to settle into one role that largely involves watching others get the hardest, final outs. Thornton did that for a long time, nearly 5 years.

Can anyone recall a lights-out closer who transitioned from an extended, multi-year "apprenticeship" as a set up man, like Thornton? I honestly can not (I thought maybe the Nasty Boys, but I think they were mostly always interchangeable). There have got to be a few, but it seems like most of the best either got thrown right into the fire, converted from starting, or set up for no more than a year. Latroy Hawkins has been cited here as an example of a failed transition, and I'm wondering how often it’s done successfully.

 

As has been said, I think there is a huge difference between innings 7-8 and 9, and mental intangibles (or just plain gonads) are a key to closing. Unfortunately, they have to be tested under fire, and 0 for your first 3 = a failing grade.

Heath Bell spent 5 years as a setup man before the Padres let Hoffman go.

 

Brad Lidge and Octavio Dotel both spent years as setup men for Howry, then as rotating closers in 2004, before Lidge took over the job.

So gonads is a key to closing but not coming in in the 7th inning of a run game with the bases loaded? With the way Thornton is pitching right now he would be struggling just as much in the 7th or 8th as in the 9th. He isn't locating his pitches and his velocity is down.

I don't disagree. He's really struggling right now. But I'm not saying your 7th inning scenario doesn't also involve pressure or require stones. I'm just saying closing is different. Obviously, its just my opinion and I've never done either, but I've heard lots of baseball folks say so over the years.

Edited April 12, 201115 yr by PlaySumFnJurny

Heath Bell spent 5 years as a setup man before the Padres let Hoffman go.

 

Brad Lidge and Octavio Dotel both spent years as setup men for Howry, then as rotating closers in 2004, before Lidge took over the job.

 

Ah, Heath Bell. Good call, thanks. But I think you may be wrong on Lidge: He set up for just one season (2002) and then finished 44 games in 2003.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lidgebr01.shtml

 

And I would exclude Dotel for being a converted starter:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/doteloc01.shtml

I don't disagree. He's really struggling right now. But I'm not saying your 7th inning scenario doesn't also involve pressure or require stones. I'm just saying closing is different. Obviously, its just my opinion and I've never done either, but I've heard lots of baseball say so over the years.

 

I'm not saying there is nothing to it at all, but I just don't buy that a guy like Thornton who has pitched in so many high leverage situations and was a dominant reliever is suddenly struggling because he is pitching in the 9th inning. I am concerned about him for sure but it doesn't have anything to do with his mindset for pitching in the 9th inning.