South Side Fireworks Man Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 QUOTE (sin city sox fan @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 07:14 AM) i That may have been what he was trying to say.....but in reality, he has consistently built teams with second, third, or fouth talent only to have Ozzie make them overachieve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 04:05 PM) Only the posters here would have predicted the kind of seasons that Dunn, Rios, and Peavy had. What Kenny has done every year, with the players available, is build a team capable of winning the division. I am amazed how many people think they could have predicted the collapse of three key players. Hey, a straw man from Tex. You don't see that too often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 QUOTE (sin city sox fan @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 07:14 AM) i That may have been what he was trying to say.....but in reality, he has consistently built teams with second, third, or fouth talent only to have Ozzie make them overachieve. Hahahaha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 10:48 PM) Adam Dunn was a huge gamble? No, sorry. Yes, he fell off hard and it backfired, but no one, not even you, could have predicted his collapse. Peavy, when he was traded for had a minor injury. He tried to push the envelope and come back in time for three meaningless starts to prove himself to his new team. His team let him. Even with that said, he was by far the best pitcher available that any team wanted. And beginning this year, nobody was depending on Peavy. Everyone pretty much agreed that whatever you got from him was gravy. Rios, a guy I've always hated just had a good year in 2010. Nobody was counting on him being a bucket of suck either. Just to keep up his normal play. He couldn't do that. Rios and Dunn were depended on and both failed miserably. I'll always give Kenny flack for Rios, but not for Peavy. QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 07:17 AM) Yes they did, just ask them And they are way better at predicting the team's finish. All those so called experts who picked the team to win the division don't know anything about baseball. people here knew Dunn would have this kind of season. They knew Rios would suck and Peavy would be injured and take longer to heal. Kenny should have gotten Pujols in a trade for three can't miss prospects while continuing to build the minor league system. He did. Randy was there right from the beginning denouncing that signing. But let's not stop you guys from making false generalizations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 (edited) I'll say it before and I'll say it again - ALL of Soxtalk is property of WhiteSoxRandy for the rest of 2011. Save the "Nobody saw Dunn being this bad' jargon. That's just splitting hairs. Of course nobody could ever predict a full-time Major League baseball player hitting .160 with two trillion Ks over the course of a season. But there were warning signs. The second-half dip last year. The spike in Ks the last couple seasons. He's never been a designated hitter. And that's obviously more of a mental hurdle than I or anybody else thought it was at the time (like the set-up man forgetting how to pitch when he has to close *Thornton*). Randy wanted no part of Dunn. And we (me included) skinned him alive. Edited September 25, 2011 by Jordan4life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 Anytime you operate on a budget like the Sox and publicly proclaim how tight money is, like the Sox, when you give a player $56 million, it is a huge gamble. The Sox win some, like when they paid Konerko, and lose some, like Peavy and Dunn and Rios. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 08:39 AM) Hiring Oz wasn't up to him and firing Oz is not up to him. I think most everyone here would agree that KW would have fired Oz in 2008 or 2009 if it was his call. Certainly Oz would be gone by now. Basically I believe Ozzie is playing chicken to see which one of them will be fired first. Ozzie for misplaying these guys or KW for signing them. Oz reminds me of a spoiled baby fighting for Dad's attention and love. Why would he have been fired iafter 2008 or 2009? He won the division in 08. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 12:41 PM) Why would he have been fired iafter 2008 or 2009? He won the division in 08. I said in not after. For 2008 it was early May, the team was off to a very slow start, lost to Minny 13-1 to fall to 15-18 on the season and there was some tension, IIRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 Why would he have been fired iafter 2008 or 2009? He won the division in 08. If anything, 2008 just shows how good Ozzie is. Despite Kenny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 02:33 PM) If anything, 2008 just shows how good Ozzie is. Despite Kenny. Which is why Jerry Owens opened the season as the starting LF and Carlos Quentin opened it on the bench. Because of how good Ozzie is. Owens getting hurt might well have bought Ozzie 2 more years of employment, because if Ozzie didn't have to play Quentin when he did, his team would have missed the playoffs that year too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 Which is why Jerry Owens opened the season as the starting LF and Carlos Quentin opened it on the bench. Because of how good Ozzie is. Owens getting hurt might well have bought Ozzie 2 more years of employment, because if Ozzie didn't have to play Quentin when he did, his team would have missed the playoffs that year too. And Carlos breaking his hand, and still making the playoffs.. Despite a lack luster roster. Lets not forget Kenny's "big" trade deadline deal... Griffey.. Let me ask you this.. We know Marlins want Ozzie... What Team would Kenny go to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 01:38 PM) Which is why Jerry Owens opened the season as the starting LF and Carlos Quentin opened it on the bench. Because of how good Ozzie is. Owens getting hurt might well have bought Ozzie 2 more years of employment, because if Ozzie didn't have to play Quentin when he did, his team would have missed the playoffs that year too. You questioned why I thought Kenny would have fired Ozzie in 2008, then post this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 01:43 PM) And Carlos breaking his hand, and still making the playoffs.. Despite a lack luster roster. Lets not forget Kenny's "big" trade deadline deal... Griffey.. Let me ask you this.. We know Marlins want Ozzie... What Team would Kenny go to? Hey Vic, this is the thread where Quinarvy owned you (or you owned him in your world). Feel free to read and respond. http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...3338&st=465 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 02:43 PM) You questioned why I thought Kenny would have fired Ozzie in 2008, then post this? At that point, he'd have been 2 years off of a 90 win team. Even sticking Jerry Owens out there, he wasn't getting fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 01:47 PM) At that point, he'd have been 2 years off of a 90 win team. Even sticking Jerry Owens out there, he wasn't getting fired. Sure. Balta, I have often said you could take any side in any thread and win. It now seems like you are bored and want to win both sides Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 02:56 PM) Sure. In September 2007 they picked up Ozzie's 2011 contract option. They committed to pay him for 4 more years at the end of 2007. And I'm going to believe that the White Sox were going to fire him and pay him 3 more years' salary at the end of 2008 even if the team went 30-132? This isn't an opinion there Tex. They picked up his option in the dregs of 2007. He was under contract for 4 seasons. You can't even pretend you have a case here. The earliest they'd ever have fired him was 2010, where they would have only had to pay him for 1 season. Instead they added 1 more year to his contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 01:59 PM) In September 2007 they picked up Ozzie's 2011 contract option. They committed to pay him for 4 more years at the end of 2007. And I'm going to believe that the White Sox were going to fire him and pay him 3 more years' salary at the end of 2008 even if the team went 30-132? This isn't an opinion there Tex. They picked up his option in the dregs of 2007. He was under contract for 4 seasons. You can't even pretend you have a case here. The earliest they'd ever have fired him was 2010, where they would have only had to pay him for 1 season. Instead they added 1 more year to his contract. Who is THEY? Did you forget we are discussing IF Kenny could fire Ozzie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 03:03 PM) Who is THEY? The Chicago White Sox front office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 02:04 PM) The Chicago White Sox front office. Then go back and read the part where I said if Kenny could fire the manager Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 03:05 PM) Then go back and read the part where I said if Kenny could fire the manager If the Chairman extended Ozzie's contract and KW wanted him removed then KW should have resigned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 (edited) Saying Ozzie would have gotten fired had they lost big in 2007 is the same thing as Moneyball making it out that Beane could possibly have gotten fired for a .500 record in 2002. It's just completely out of the realm of possibility. That might be the single biggest flaw in a Moneyball movie for a real baseball fan...REAL fans knew/know there was no actual threat of him losing his job, whereas many that go to see the film will have no idea and just root entirely from an underdog standpoint not unlike the Blind Side, Jim Morris in THE ROOKIE or the 1980 US hockey team. Edited September 25, 2011 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 Saying Ozzie would have gotten fired had they lost big in 2007 is the same thing as Moneyball making it out that Beane could possibly have gotten fired for a .500 record in 2002. It's just completely out of the realm of possibility. That might be the single biggest flaw in a Moneyball movie for a real baseball fan...REAL fans knew/know there was no actual threat of him losing his job, whereas many that go to see the film will have no idea and just root entirely from an underdog standpoint not unlike the Blind Side, Jim Morris in THE ROOKIE or the 1980 US hockey team. Have you seen the movie I take it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 02:10 PM) Have you seen the movie I take it? Nope, not too popular here in China, lol. I've read enough reviews by non-baseball writers to pick up on this as the major "drama/conflict" in the movie....along with his marital/fatherhood problems away from the park, which aren't the central focus. Supposedly, the A's get to the World Series the previous year. That obviously didn't happen. But it makes it seem as if there was even more pressure on him to keep his job when in reality their payroll was around $32 million and the Yankees were already outspending them by a factor of 4 or 5-1. Edited September 25, 2011 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 I would be so disgusted if changes don't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisoxt Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 06:31 AM) For me pitching.. Danks was the key, he needed to take the next step. And it never happened. 8-12 record, isn't taking it. Now granted not all those losses were his fault, but still 12 losses, isn't a good sign. His ERA is almost 1 run higher... Not at all good. Jackson also didn't really do anything after the Sox home opener.. Peavy I didn't think he be close to being Jake all year.. after what had happened. Well. considering that Jackson had been with four teams in four years and had been a total enigma his whole career, was that a big surprise? Why did we have to gut our system of its two best pitching prospects for what amount to a Don Cooper project? Not to get down on you, but the whole basis of defending KW on the premise that "No one would have predicted that (fill in the blank)" is complete bull s*** when all it took was some common sense to realize that many of Kenny's all-in acquisitions were doomed from the start. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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