(Dick Allen @ Dec 27, 2011 -> 06:19 AM)

What's very interesting is Cowley himself implied Ozzie was batting Dunn cleanup just to make KW look back. Ozzie denied it, but considering how little it takes for a Guillen to hold a grudge, its very interesting Oney and Co. are still letting Joe pick up their takeout.

There was the same implication about Rios playing everyday too.

 

 

I just refuse to believe this. If Adam Dunn was getting paid $14M a year he had better play and perform. I am sure every game he was penciled in to play was the game he was expected to turn things around in. There were lots of games he sat because it was to painful to watch and he just couldn't get the job done. Rios was another one for the most part. I think folks are just being a bit overly critical here towards Ozzie, et al. Now what I would say about criticism of Ozzie Guillen playing Dunn and Rios is to point to the fact some now say there is no way we can get rid of their contracts because they were dismal flops. Ok that is a valid argument. But, they then say we should trade our performers and keep Rios and Dunn and Peavy too. What do we do if they don't perform again? Keep them on the bench and play with 22 players instead of 25 and keep paying their inflated salaries? You can't have it both ways.

Edited December 28, 201114 yr by knightni

What do we do if they don't perform again? Keep them on the bench and play with 22 players instead of 25 and keep paying their inflated salaries? You can't have it both ways.

Last year, they had to be benched. That's the definition of "all in".

 

This year, if they struggle again, whatever your do, the goal becomes to help them either come out of it or retire. If that means they play through it, we lose the games, we're no longer going all in to win.

 

The problem last year waste went all in to win with the roster and money, but the manager didn't coach all in to win. This years manager needs to coach for recovery.

I just refuse to believe this. If Adam Dunn was getting paid $14M a year he had better play and perform. I am sure every game he was penciled in to play was the game he was expected to turn things around in. There were lots of games he sat because it was to painful to watch and he just couldn't get the job done. Rios was another one for the most part. I think folks are just being a bit overly critical here towards Ozzie, et al. Now what I would say about criticism of Ozzie Guillen playing Dunn and Rios is to point to the fact some now say there is no way we can get rid of their contracts because they were dismal flops. Ok that is a valid argument. But, they then say we should trade our performers and keep Rios and Dunn and Peavy too. What do we do if they don't perform again? Keep them on the bench and play with 22 players instead of 25 and keep paying their inflated salaries? You can't have it both ways.

 

Go back and read Cowardly's article about the fight Kenny and Ozzie had over Rios and tell me that again. I'd didn't really buy into it at all until I saw the Ozzie sockpuppet basically the say exactly what had been said before.

Go back and read Cowardly's article about the fight Kenny and Ozzie had over Rios and tell me that again. I'd didn't really buy into it at all until I saw the Ozzie sockpuppet basically the say exactly what had been said before.

 

The game where he pinch hit Dunn in place of Lillibridge is what convinced me he was deliberately trying to make KW look bad. Random casual fans were even commenting on how questionable a move that was based on how well Lillibridge looked that game.

Cowley:

@Oneyguillen @espnchijon ... who is not on there? I'm going to guess his bottom 3 he managed were Swish, C. Lee and Dunn.

Oney:

@cst_Cowley don't think c lee was on there to be honest for sure swish I think. Dunn it wasn't personal

 

 

Not sure if that brings any insight to this conversation but I guess Oz and Dunn weren't best buddies.

Cowley:

@Oneyguillen @espnchijon ... who is not on there? I'm going to guess his bottom 3 he managed were Swish, C. Lee and Dunn.

Oney:

@cst_Cowley don't think c lee was on there to be honest for sure swish I think. Dunn it wasn't personal

 

 

Not sure if that brings any insight to this conversation but I guess Oz and Dunn weren't best buddies.

It says it wasn't personal.

It says it wasn't personal.

 

Well not between Ozzie and Dunn

Cowley:

@Oneyguillen @espnchijon ... who is not on there? I'm going to guess his bottom 3 he managed were Swish, C. Lee and Dunn.

Oney:

@cst_Cowley don't think c lee was on there to be honest for sure swish I think. Dunn it wasn't personal

 

 

Not sure if that brings any insight to this conversation but I guess Oz and Dunn weren't best buddies.

 

It is amazing to know that Ozzie has Cowardly in his pocket, and he can't even use him right. Here he is leaking information that damages him majorly. Two of the biggest detractions to Williams record have been Dunn and Swisher. Here we have Joe accidentally spilling that the move of Swisher after one year could very well have been to the fact that Ozzie hated him, not because Kenny wanted to get rid of him. Damn are Ozzie and company stupid for this stuff to be getting out. This is only going to make him look worse, not better. This is showing Ozzie seems to be only able to manage the guys he likes at the very least.

See Chicago Black Sox/Charles Comiskey.

Over a hundred years ago . . .

Ozzie has been indisputedy proven a liar. For a long time, I was torn and supported Ozzie. Then his own, accidentally and prematurely released, announcement of his acceptance of the Miami job sealed it. After that, any doubts in my mind about his priorities being, first, money, and, second, using the Sox to make KW look bad were cast aside. Once those doubts were gone, using the retrospectoscope to review the season made Ozzie's line-up decisions easy to comprehend.

Ozzie has been indisputedy proven a liar. For a long time, I was torn and supported Ozzie. Then his own, accidentally and prematurely released, announcement of his acceptance of the Miami job sealed it. After that, any doubts in my mind about his priorities being, first, money, and, second, using the Sox to make KW look bad were cast aside. Once those doubts were gone, using the retrospectoscope to review the season made Ozzie's line-up decisions easy to comprehend.

Honestly, I don't know if the man has enough of a filter to be a true liar. So fickle that he made himself look like a liar on several occasions? Absolutely. As far as prematurely letting his Miami thing slip, I think that just shows how bad a liar he is. Either way, I have no doubt that he's so self-absorbed that he would make bad decisions out of blind animosity.

Honestly, I don't know if the man has enough of a filter to be a true liar. So fickle that he made himself look like a liar on several occasions? Absolutely. As far as prematurely letting his Miami thing slip, I think that just shows how bad a liar he is. Either way, I have no doubt that he's so self-absorbed that he would make bad decisions out of blind animosity.

Scotty, i agree with you except, that if he is so self absorbed, i think he would want to win, in spite of KW. Winning would have proved his genius.

Scotty, i agree with you except, that if he is so self absorbed, i think he would want to win, in spite of KW. Winning would have proved his genius.

That's the mature way of approaching the job. I just think Ozzie gets so caught up in personal and family honor that he overlooks the level-headed sort of "beat 'em by proving yourself" response.

Ozzie has been indisputedy proven a liar. For a long time, I was torn and supported Ozzie. Then his own, accidentally and prematurely released, announcement of his acceptance of the Miami job sealed it. After that, any doubts in my mind about his priorities being, first, money, and, second, using the Sox to make KW look bad were cast aside. Once those doubts were gone, using the retrospectoscope to review the season made Ozzie's line-up decisions easy to comprehend.

 

Ozzie's position on things change day to day.

He's a motormouth who says whatever he wants. Some of you IMO think he has some patterned agenda.

He's just a talkaholic. I find that refreshing.

Ozzie's position on things change day to day.

He's a motormouth who says whatever he wants. Some of you IMO think he has some patterned agenda.

He's just a talkaholic. I find that refreshing.

 

 

Sox fan = Ozzie

Cubs = greg

 

"Gee, that's refreshing."

-greg

Then again, many players in the past have had issues with the likes of Scioscia and LaRussa...but because of their overall level of success, they're not so easily held with their feet to the fire, especially by the local media in those markets.

 

Although both those managers have a number of "haters" or detractors as well.

Edited December 29, 201114 yr by caulfield12

Ozzie's position on things change day to day.

He's a motormouth who says whatever he wants. Some of you IMO think he has some patterned agenda.

He's just a talkaholic. I find that refreshing.

 

It would have been much more refreshing if he performance had matched his rhetoric.

Ozzie's position on things change day to day.

He's a motormouth who says whatever he wants. Some of you IMO think he has some patterned agenda.

He's just a talkaholic. I find that refreshing.

 

I want somebody whose position does not change running my team. I also want a manager with an agenda. Talkaholics are for stay at home moms and morning television not running baseball teams.

It is amazing to know that Ozzie has Cowardly in his pocket, and he can't even use him right. Here he is leaking information that damages him majorly. Two of the biggest detractions to Williams record have been Dunn and Swisher. Here we have Joe accidentally spilling that the move of Swisher after one year could very well have been to the fact that Ozzie hated him, not because Kenny wanted to get rid of him. Damn are Ozzie and company stupid for this stuff to be getting out. This is only going to make him look worse, not better. This is showing Ozzie seems to be only able to manage the guys he likes at the very least.

 

Can somebody explain what the whole beef was between Ozzie and Swish? And C. Lee?

 

I never got the impression there was a beef, though, with Dunn.

 

Once again, though, there's Oney, shooting his mouth off, showing zero class. Won't miss that.

Can somebody explain what the whole beef was between Ozzie and Swish? And C. Lee?

 

I never got the impression there was a beef, though, with Dunn.

 

Once again, though, there's Oney, shooting his mouth off, showing zero class. Won't miss that.

 

No idea, but apparently Jay Cowley and Oney know.

Can somebody explain what the whole beef was between Ozzie and Swish?

The public story with Swisher was that he wouldn't listen to the coaching staff, particularly Walker, espescially when he was struggling with the bats. Think Colby Rasmus style this year.

 

Non public stories have alleged that there were various mind-altering substances involved.

The main reason Ozzie disliked Swisher from what the media reported is that Ozzie felt Swisher was selfish for pouting that he was losing out on at bats to Wise while the team was in a pennant race.

The main reason Ozzie disliked Swisher from what the media reported is that Ozzie felt Swisher was selfish for pouting that he was losing out on at bats to Wise while the team was in a pennant race.

It was ugly between those two when Ozzie did not play him in the 2008 playoffs.

 

Sox fan = Ozzie

Cubs = greg

 

"Gee, that's refreshing."

-greg

 

lmao. This was good. Where did you find that emoticon?

There were lots of issues in the 2002-04 time frame with Lofton, Ordonez, D'Angelo Jimenez and C-Lee.

 

Those four, in particular, were singled-out as "clubhouse" cancers by many insiders, particularly Jimenez....the perfect example of a low-risk/upside guy who nearly tore apart that clubhouse and was rightfully jettisoned, albeit not quickly enough.

 

Obviously, Ozzie and Maggs had their own not so private dispute play out in the media, not coincidentally.

 

And Lee has always been known as a "stats and me first," selfish, non-team oriented player, for a number of reasons.