ptatc Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (daa84 @ Jan 9, 2012 -> 07:10 PM) Excellent point. It's well known that guys in the early and mid 80s were juicing. The guys really started to balloon as the roids got better and better and more plentiful, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if many players juiced well before the perceived steroid era I would disagree. One of the really accurate things in Canseco's book is that he made the PEDs popular in MLB. The only drugs prior to him in 86 or so were cocaine and amphetamines. There were probably were a few but there weren't many. At the time most players looked like normal people. Most didn't even lift weights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 9, 2012 -> 08:42 PM) I would disagree. One of the really accurate things in Canseco's book is that he made the PEDs popular in MLB. The only drugs prior to him in 86 or so were cocaine and amphetamines. There were probably were a few but there weren't many. At the time most players looked like normal people. Most didn't even lift weights. He wrote that he was stabbing McGwire's tuchus when Mac was a rookie in 1984. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 9, 2012 -> 08:17 PM) He wrote that he was stabbing McGwire's tuchus when Mac was a rookie in 1984. Kinda tough to do when Canseco was a rookie in 85 and McGwire was a rookie in 86. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 9, 2012 -> 03:13 PM) Considering the names coming up in 2013 & 2014, he could be in trouble. 2013 - Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Schilling, Sosa, Biggio, Royce Clayton (!)  2014 - Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, Kent, Mussina Those are my picks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I think I read Biggio as Bagwell, for some reason. I agree that he could and just might get in on the first ballot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggsmaggs Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Considering Thomas and Bagwell had eerily similar careers offensively and Bagwell played first base full time, I am starting to think that Frank won't get in first ballot. Even though he has never had the cloud of steroid suspicion, I think the entire era will f*** him over. And it will be a shame. He was one of the top 10 hitters in baseball history during his prime. Too bad injuries hurt him. Edited January 10, 2012 by maggsmaggs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jan 9, 2012 -> 11:48 PM) Considering Thomas and Bagwell had eerily similar careers offensively and Bagwell played first base full time, I am starting to think that Frank won't get in first ballot. Even though he has never had the cloud of steroid suspicion, I think the entire era will f*** him over. And it will be a shame. He was one of the top 10 hitters in baseball history during his prime. Too bad injuries hurt him. Â 3 MVPs would most certainly make him a first ballot guy. f***ing Giambi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 9, 2012 -> 04:31 PM) And he couldnt' have used any PED's previously to get over an injury or get ready for a season? You have the blood samples? He couldn't have increased the dosages or changed over to the new drug? Â Jesus.. I can understand people not liking Bonds, but this is ridiculous. I honestly wish he wasn't so egotistical when he saw Big Mac and Sammy getting all the acolytes prior to 99. He was just an amazing player/athlete before the body change. (mostly his head growing two times the size as before) Â FWIW.. I would still vote Bonds in even if the MLB erased all his numbers from 1999 on. He is still a HOF. Edited January 10, 2012 by SoxAce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 9, 2012 -> 04:07 PM) How do you know for certain that he didn't start PED's in 1984? Â I'm going with the guy who has actually spent a lot of time in pro lockerrooms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 If we're judging solely based on body type changes...I didn't even bring this name up first...when did Palmeiro's body type change? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Jan 9, 2012 -> 11:43 PM) That's just insanity to me, courtesy votes, really? You should lose your right to vote if you're giving someone a courtesy vote... Â Why? There's no harm in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 08:42 AM) If we're judging solely based on body type changes...I didn't even bring this name up first...when did Palmeiro's body type change? when he left the cubs. He was a different player and body type in Texas. He didn't bulk up to sosa size but he definitely changed. The cubs traded him because they though Grace had more power. Â this also isn't an exact science where ever single case these things happen. this is still all my opinion not proof. But I'm pretty confident in what I saw back then as I'm sure many people involved in baseball were, including the writers. Being with the players in locker rooms and training rooms is an advantage. for example, seeing acne on guys backs that look like burns because is was so bad is not real common in guys in their late 20's, unless other things are going on. Edited January 10, 2012 by ptatc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 10:58 AM) when he left the cubs. He was a different player and body type in Texas. He didn't bulk up to sosa size but he definitely changed. The cubs traded him because they though Grace had more power. this also isn't an exact science where ever single case these things happen. this is still all my opinion not proof. But I'm pretty confident in what I saw back then as I'm sure many people involved in baseball were, including the writers. Being with the players in locker rooms and training rooms is an advantage. for example, seeing acne on guys backs that look like burns because is was so bad is not real common in guys in their late 20's, unless other things are going on. I certainly don't see that. Maybe he changed, but it's so subtle I can't fathom how you can clearly say "This player wasn't juicing because his body type didn't change". Especially when normal people add mass at about the same agem.    Anyway...my point is, unless you saw Tetrahydrogestrinone's back in 1991 and verified that there was not an abnormal amount of acne, you've got at best a circumstantial case that the guy was clean. Given that he clearly was willing to do so later in his career, I simply choose to believe that the reason he was an athletic freak early in his career has a good chance of being chemical as well. And I have exactly the same amount of proof of that as people have that he was clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 12:49 PM) I certainly don't see that. Maybe he changed, but it's so subtle I can't fathom how you can clearly say "This player wasn't juicing because his body type didn't change". Especially when normal people add mass at about the same agem.   Anyway...my point is, unless you saw Tetrahydrogestrinone's back in 1991 and verified that there was not an abnormal amount of acne, you've got at best a circumstantial case that the guy was clean. Given that he clearly was willing to do so later in his career, I simply choose to believe that the reason he was an athletic freak early in his career has a good chance of being chemical as well. And I have exactly the same amount of proof of that as people have that he was clean. I did see many of those players. and you're right you have as much definitive proof as i do. That's why i said it was my opinion. i am just basing it on my experience with these type of athletes, especially back then when just weightlifting was new to baseball. I still think it is fairly easy to pick most but not all of them out. In your pictures compare the size of his forearms. I don't know how much you've worked out but do you now how hard it is to significantly hypertorphy those small wrist flexors and extensors? Back to my original point that I think the writer's will do the same thing. many of the writer's think the know who did and who didn't and also when they started. i also think from knowing some writers that they will look at this ans individually decide on who they will let in and who they won't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:04 PM) I don't know how much you've worked out but do you now how hard it is to significantly hypertorphy those small wrist flexors and extensors? Actually, yes, I'm somewhat familiar with that, but let me also say that if my career was built in no small part on my ability to flick my wrists while flailing a piece of wood around my body, I'd put a hell of a lot more effort into it than I currently do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 01:14 PM) Actually, yes, I'm somewhat familiar with that, but let me also say that if my career was built in no small part on my ability to flick my wrists while flailing a piece of wood around my body, I'd put a hell of a lot more effort into it than I currently do. Even if you concentrate on them, it's really difficult to increase their size that much, not impossible but really difficult. The small wrist flexors and extensors just do not have the cross sectional size to hypertrophy like the quads which have 20X the cross sectional area. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zenryan Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Orlando resident! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamTell Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Congrats to Barry Larkin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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