There's probably a reason for every beat writer having a hard time keeping the story straight.

Its definitely confusing if you look at it on the surface: Sale is a starter when drafted, he comes up as a reliever with the Sox, they say he's going to start in 2012 and does, then they say he's back to the bullpen.

 

To me, the criticism here shouldn't be about putting him in the bullpen at this point, since it obviously is needed to save his arm. I also fail to see how its bad that the Sox are attempting to do something other than have him go from 70 straight to 200 innings - I think that only make sense, and so does this move.

 

The criticism I have is that they made him a reliever at all, if they wanted him to start. That is what caused all this.

 

That all said, I still think the media, and many here, ran with an interperetation they made, and that the confusion is purely in the swirling media/fanbase talk. Unless, that is, someone can show me where the Sox said definitively that the move to the bullpen was permanent.

Its definitely confusing if you look at it on the surface: Sale is a starter when drafted, he comes up as a reliever with the Sox, they say he's going to start in 2012 and does, then they say he's back to the bullpen.

 

To me, the criticism here shouldn't be about putting him in the bullpen at this point, since it obviously is needed to save his arm. I also fail to see how its bad that the Sox are attempting to do something other than have him go from 70 straight to 200 innings - I think that only make sense, and so does this move.

 

The criticism I have is that they made him a reliever at all, if they wanted him to start. That is what caused all this.

 

That all said, I still think the media, and many here, ran with an interperetation they made, and that the confusion is purely in the swirling media/fanbase talk. Unless, that is, someone can show me where the Sox said definitively that the move to the bullpen was permanent.

you just keep ignoring the quotes. or do you not feel that "rest of season" = permanent.

What's interesting is that we still haven't heard from KW on this. That leads me to believe that Sale's ultimate fate, even for this year, remains undecided.

 

Its definitely confusing if you look at it on the surface: Sale is a starter when drafted, he comes up as a reliever with the Sox, they say he's going to start in 2012 and does, then they say he's back to the bullpen.

 

To me, the criticism here shouldn't be about putting him in the bullpen at this point, since it obviously is needed to save his arm. I also fail to see how its bad that the Sox are attempting to do something other than have him go from 70 straight to 200 innings - I think that only make sense, and so does this move.

 

The criticism I have is that they made him a reliever at all, if they wanted him to start. That is what caused all this.

 

That all said, I still think the media, and many here, ran with an interperetation they made, and that the confusion is purely in the swirling media/fanbase talk. Unless, that is, someone can show me where the Sox said definitively that the move to the bullpen was permanent.

 

This was the only way Chris Sale was going to be a member of this organization. He wanted top 3 draft pick money. The only thing that changed his mind was the chance to prove himself at the major league level, and to start his free agent/arb clock ASAP. The Sox weren't going over slot for him, which means they weren't going to draft him without this compromise.

you just keep ignoring the quotes. or do you not feel that "rest of season" = permanent.

WHAT QUOTES? No one has posted a quote from the SOX (not a writer's tweeted interperetation) that says its permanent. If someone finds one, great. Show me. All I've said from the beginning is, I have yet to see that.

 

The ONE QUOTE that talks about permanence or not, from the Sox, is the Cooper one saying "never say never" and "for now", which clearly say nothing of permanent.

 

There's probably a reason for every beat writer having a hard time keeping the story straight.

If only they'd had a direct line to NSS72, then they'd have been in the know the entire time.

Edited May 9, 201213 yr by Steve9347

This was the only way Chris Sale was going to be a member of this organization. He wanted top 3 draft pick money. The only thing that changed his mind was the chance to prove himself at the major league level, and to start his free agent/arb clock ASAP. The Sox weren't going over slot for him, which means they weren't going to draft him without this compromise.

also, re: starters coming up as relievers, see Buerhle, Mark

This was the only way Chris Sale was going to be a member of this organization. He wanted top 3 draft pick money. The only thing that changed his mind was the chance to prove himself at the major league level, and to start his free agent/arb clock ASAP. The Sox weren't going over slot for him, which means they weren't going to draft him without this compromise.

That's a good point, but then to me, that is a flaw in their drafting strategy. Also, they could have had him be a reliever in his draft year (which they did), then give him 2011 to pitch in AA or AAA to get to starting innings.

 

That's a good point, but then to me, that is a flaw in their drafting strategy. Also, they could have had him be a reliever in his draft year (which they did), then give him 2011 to pitch in AA or AAA to get to starting innings.

 

They thought they could win the division with Sale in the pen last year. I get that, even if he it ended in a smoldering disaster.

WHAT QUOTES? No one has posted a quote from the SOX (not a writer's tweeted interperetation) that says its permanent. If someone finds one, great. Show me. All I've said from the beginning is, I have yet to see that.

 

The ONE QUOTE that talks about permanence or not, from the Sox, is the Cooper one saying "never say never" and "for now", which clearly say nothing of permanent.

 

"Some can and some can't," Sale said. "I wouldn't say I can't, but this year just isn't in the cards."

Guys, look at what is happening with the other members of the bullpen...the elephant in the room is ADDISON REED.

 

I think they finally realize they need to turn the closer role, permanently, over to Reed.

 

Which means Sale is going to be a setup man and now there are 4 lefties in the pen until they do the smart thing and send Santiago back down.

 

Sale is not going to be happy as a setup man, and neither is Kenny, since it reduces his trade value.

 

They are trying to figure out what makes Sale the most valuable not only to the Sox, but also to other organizations, as well as what will keep him from blowing his elbow out and keeping him happy. And Chris's agent is obviously going to tell him that priority one is starting and two is closing...those are the two positions which will maximize his earning capacity.

 

But now the closing role is being taken by someone else...so where does that leave us...back to starting...

also, re: starters coming up as relievers, see Buerhle, Mark

That's where I think they could have done this better. Sale as a reliever in his draft year, that was fine, he'd already put in over 100 innings that year. But then 2011 should have been his buildup from that point - from 140 IP in 2010, to starting innings in 2011, which isn't a huge leap. Instead, they had him go down to 70 innings in 2011, and then try to push him up to full time. That was a mistake, IMO.

 

MB only relieved for a half year, after starting in the minors, and threw 170 innings that year, before going to full time starting.

 

Guys, look at what is happening with the other members of the bullpen...the elephant in the room is ADDISON REED.

 

I think they finally realize they need to turn the closer role, permanently, over to Reed.

 

Which means Sale is going to be a setup man and now there are 4 lefties in the pen until they do the smart thing and send Santiago back down.

 

Sale is not going to be happy as a setup man, and neither is Kenny, since it reduces his trade value.

 

They are trying to figure out what makes Sale the most valuable not only to the Sox, but also to other organizations, as well as what will keep him from blowing his elbow out and keeping him happy. And Chris's agent is obviously going to tell him that priority one is starting and two is closing...those are the two positions which will maximize his earning capacity.

 

But now the closing role is being taken by someone else...so where does that leave us...back to starting...

if they cared about preserving Sale's value on the market, they'd never have DONE this to begin with. they destroyed his value by waving a big red flag and pointing at Chris' elbow.

That's where I think they could have done this better. Sale as a reliever in his draft year, that was fine, he'd already put in over 100 innings that year. But then 2011 should have been his buildup from that point - from 140 IP in 2010, to starting innings in 2011, which isn't a huge leap. Instead, they had him go down to 70 innings in 2011, and then try to push him up to full time. That was a mistake, IMO.

 

MB only relieved for a half year, after starting in the minors, and threw 170 innings that year, before going to full time starting.

Derek Lowe went from a closer to throwing 200 innings a year. CJ Wilson only threw 70 innings in one of 4 years then had back to back 200+ inning seasons. To say they hurt Sale by limiting his innings last season isn't necessarily true.

Guys, look at what is happening with the other members of the bullpen...the elephant in the room is ADDISON REED.

 

I think they finally realize they need to turn the closer role, permanently, over to Reed.

 

Which means Sale is going to be a setup man and now there are 4 lefties in the pen until they do the smart thing and send Santiago back down.

 

Sale is not going to be happy as a setup man, and neither is Kenny, since it reduces his trade value.

 

They are trying to figure out what makes Sale the most valuable not only to the Sox, but also to other organizations, as well as what will keep him from blowing his elbow out and keeping him happy. And Chris's agent is obviously going to tell him that priority one is starting and two is closing...those are the two positions which will maximize his earning capacity.

 

But now the closing role is being taken by someone else...so where does that leave us...back to starting...

 

Santiago is around until Crain comes off of the DL.

"Some can and some can't," Sale said. "I wouldn't say I can't, but this year just isn't in the cards."

I was thinking someone who makes decisions, but that's definitely from "The Sox", you are right. Sale seemed to think, at least in the heat of the moment, it wasn't happening this year.

 

I was thinking someone who makes decisions, but that's definitely from "The Sox", you are right. Sale seemed to think, at least in the heat of the moment, it wasn't happening this year.

and it means someone who makes the decisions gave him that impression... so he was operating with the same info as we and the beat reporters were. i'd say the reactions have been appropriate.

Derek Lowe went from a closer to throwing 200 innings a year. CJ Wilson only threw 70 innings in one of 4 years then had back to back 200+ inning seasons. To say they hurt Sale by limiting his innings last season isn't necessarily true.

No one has said its impossible to do that - obviously it happens. Dempster did it too, if I recall correctly. Its just hard to do and expect success with it, especially for a young player who, in my view, looks like a stick figure and lacks a lot of muscle. What it did was, increase the risk (a lot) of this happening, Heck, its not like I was the only one saying this would likely happen during the year, lots of others did as well. It just happened earlier than many would have guessed.

 

if they cared about preserving Sale's value on the market, they'd never have DONE this to begin with. they destroyed his value by waving a big red flag and pointing at Chris' elbow.

I think they are genuinely concerned about him first, as they should be, as they have an obligation to be.

 

 

and it means someone who makes the decisions gave him that impression... so he was operating with the same info as we and the beat reporters were. i'd say the reactions have been appropriate.

They told him something in private, he was clearly upset - and maybe they said the rest of the year. Can't say, neither can you. I think the reactions have been spastic and unfounded in any sort of facts. No one is jerking Sale around (at this point), and no one is double-talking, in terms of anything the Sox brass are saying.

 

I DO Think they jerked Sale around by having him be a reliever in 2011.

 

I think they are genuinely concerned about him first, as they should be, as they have an obligation to be.

This. Not everything's a conspiracy.

 

I do agree that he should have been starting in AAA last year. Bringing him out of the pen was a mistake. I understand the reason, but it was shortsighted.

They told him something in private, he was clearly upset - and maybe they said the rest of the year. Can't say, neither can you. I think the reactions have been spastic and unfounded in any sort of facts. No one is jerking Sale around (at this point), and no one is double-talking, in terms of anything the Sox brass are saying.

 

I DO Think they jerked Sale around by having him be a reliever in 2011.

 

As I said earlier, the conversation may well have been "It could be the rest of the year" which was heard as "It will be the rest of the year".

Sale should be in charge of his own career. As long as he's informed, given options and possible consequences, then it's on him if he gets hurt.

 

If he says today that he wants to start, he should do it.

 

But if he does start, then the Sox have to monitor it and manage him in the way they see fit...as a starter.

Edited May 9, 201213 yr by flavum

Sale should be in charge of his own career. As long as he's informed, given options and possible consequences, then it's on him if he gets hurt.

 

If he says today that he wants to start, he should do it.

 

But if he does start, then the Sox have to monitor it and manage him in the way they see fit...as a starter.

A 23 year old, under team control, should never be in charge of his own career. He's employed by the Sox. How they choose to use him is their prerogative.

A 23 year old, under team control, should never be in charge of his own career. He's employed by the Sox. How they choose to use him is their prerogative.

This.