Sale back to the rotation per KW, MRI comes back clean

[ScottyDo]

The young, left-handed starter torched a first-place Rays team for 15 strikeouts, one short of the team record and the most in that silly building that is embarrassing even for Bud Selig’s Major League Baseball.

 

Sale’s masterful performance works out to 10 pitches per K. That’s 115 pitches. How do the Sox let him throw 115 pitches?

WTF? Rosenbloom...

 

EDIT: Whoops, I see Jake already said that. Still, WTF? That's just lazy.

Edited May 29, 2012 by ScottyDo

[lasttriptotulsa]

WTF? Rosenbloom...

 

EDIT: Whoops, I see Jake already said that. Still, WTF? That's just lazy.

 

Looks like Rosenbloom caught it. The text in the linked article and the text posted here don't match. That line was taken out of the article.

[The Ginger Kid]

I’m not a doctor and I don’t play one on the web, but how does that guy throw 115 pitches in May?

 

 

Say this for the Sox, though: They have a history of keeping pitchers healthy and making them better. Sale appears to be a particularly acute project in that regard.

[caulfield12]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,6684194.story

 

Don Cooper blasts "non athletes," second-guessers, pitch count citers.

 

Probably specifically angered by the Rosenbloom article which reached ZERO conclusions about what they should actually do differently with Sale.

 

Edited May 30, 2012 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

Sale feels fine

 

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/12853336-41...5-k-outing.html

[caulfield12]

By my count, Chris Sale has already thrown 1,064 pitches this season.

 

In his next start, he'll pass his entire 2011 major league workload at the 1/3rd mark of the season.

 

Three starts from now, he'll pass his entire MLB career (1,477 pitches) in 2 1/3 months (yes, this doesn't take into consideration Chris' amateur career before he joined the Sox).

 

 

The question I would have is does the fact that does the fact that Chris has let up quite a bit with the fastball (except when he really needs to dial it up into the 95-97 mph range) help his elbow's longevity, or is the biggest concern still the slider? In the 15 K game, the majority of the K's came on sliders, although he is throwing it statistically less often than he did in 2011 and 2010.

 

Is there any way to measure the torque on an elbow...vis a vis someone like Liriano, who threw his slider in the 89-92 MPH range at the height of his success in 2006.

 

One would think that because Chris doesn't throw his slider nearly as hard as Liriano that, heaven forbid, if he ever did suffer an injury or need surgery, he'd be much more likely to bounce back compared to what we've seen with the Twins' pitcher.

 

 

[Goober]

He's been pitching his whole life, his arm will be fine

[Quin]

He's been pitching his whole life, his arm will be fine

 

This. he was a starter for most of his life. Did his arm just forget how to handle it because it's the majors?

[chw42]

This. he was a starter for most of his life. Did his arm just forget how to handle it because it's the majors?

 

He never pitched as often (they have longer breaks in college and high school) nor has he ever pitched such high leverage innings.

 

It's a legit issue. Perhaps overblown, but still legit.

[Rowand44]

This. he was a starter for most of his life. Did his arm just forget how to handle it because it's the majors?

Well taking a year off of having a heavy workload makes a big difference.

[caulfield12]

Cue the next Rosenbloom article on the pitch count (by the way, was he also there with Prior and Wood every start a decade ago criticizing Dusty Baker?)...

 

Not so much pitch counts, total pitches and innings pitched, but HIGH LEVERAGE pitches, pitches which put maximum torque on the elbow (slider), pitches thrown at 95 MPH and above...the 9th inning of today's game, for example, the Olivo at-bat, when he was fouling off pitches and had already homered earlier in the game and thought he had him put away at least once.

 

You can't compare Sale to Randy Johnson, Verlander, Prior, Wood, Strasburg...everyone's unique.

 

FWIW, I think the risk/upside is worth it, and if he does go down to TJ, that's actually improved or aided the careers of many pitchers, as opposed to the career death sentence that elbow injuries were in Hawk Harrelson's time.

 

As long as it's not the shoulder or labrum...and Johan Santana provides some encouragement in that area, even.

 

 

[Rowand44]

You can't compare Sale to Randy Johnson, Verlander, Prior, Wood, Strasburg...everyone's unique.

Agreed. But if you're going to compare him to anyone, I think Johnson works best because of the arm angle.

[Jake]

Well taking a year off of having a heavy workload makes a big difference.

 

I almost wonder if this is a plus, not a negative. Last year might amount to something like active rest. I remember hearing Smoltz talking about how the reason he gained velocity post-surgery was not the surgery, but the first extended layoff in a decade. Might be something to it.

[Cerbaho-WG]

I'm not a huge fan of pitch counts. Sale rarely had high stress pitches in today's game, and he was on five days of rest.

 

That being said, asking him to pitch 200 innings this year is probably too much. He might have to spend a month in the pen for him to start come September.

[Kyyle23]

LOL Caulfield. Did Rosenbloom criticize Baker? The better question is who DIDN'T criticize Baker? Prior and Wood watch in the tribune. Coverage of towel throwing. Pitch count complaints after 8 inning dominance by Prior and Wood.

 

Yea, Rosenbloom absolutely criticized Baker

[caulfield12]

When is the last time a pitcher on the AL All-Star roster was shut down (or moved to the bullpen) in the 2nd half of a season, in the middle of a pennant race, for "injury prevention" concerns?

 

Just curious what other examples are out there in recent history.

[Cerbaho-WG]

When is the last time a pitcher on the AL All-Star roster was shut down (or moved to the bullpen) in the 2nd half of a season, in the middle of a pennant race, for "injury prevention" concerns?

 

Just curious what other examples are out there in recent history.

 

I think Strasburg will be this year, and that's the only example that comes to mind. That being said, the Sox could think outside the box again and implement a six man rotation for a few weeks. If you implement one for five weeks you save Sale, and everyone else, about 10-12 innings.

 

I don't think Sale's mechanics right now are all that problematic. I'm afraid of him running out of gas in late August.

[caulfield12]

I think Strasburg will be this year, and that's the only example that comes to mind. That being said, the Sox could think outside the box again and implement a six man rotation for a few weeks. If you implement one for five weeks you save Sale, and everyone else, about 10-12 innings.

 

I don't think Sale's mechanics right now are all that problematic. I'm afraid of him running out of gas in late August.

 

 

Therein lies the dilemma.

 

Do you want to try to run away from the Tigers and Indians while they're both very vulnerable and beaten up injury-wise, or do you want to take the "long haul" approach and sacrifice victories in the middle of the season to fortify yourself for the pennant drive?

 

To me, it depends on our financial resources to add another starting pitcher.

 

The longer we hold onto first place and maximize our advantage, the better our attendance will be and the more likely it is that JR will be willing to authorize further spending, like in the case of Manny Ramirez in 2010 (hopefully that won't be used as a reason NOT to do something, because of that fiasco/failure).

 

 

You have Sizemore, Carmona, Hannahan, Hafner, Carlos Santana (he'll be back soon), Dirks out now, Austin Jackson, Fister, Avila (banged up), Victor Martinez, Albuquerque, Raburn (AAA), Inge (waived), Worth and Santiago at 2B...Gerald Laird is their best RH hitting DH candidate.

 

The time to strike is now.

 

 

[Cerbaho-WG]

Therein lies the dilemma.

 

Do you want to try to run away from the Tigers and Indians while they're both very vulnerable and beaten up injury-wise, or do you want to take the "long haul" approach and sacrifice victories in the middle of the season to fortify yourself for the pennant drive?

 

To me, it depends on our financial resources to add another starting pitcher.

 

The longer we hold onto first place and maximize our advantage, the better our attendance will be and the more likely it is that JR will be willing to authorize further spending, like in the case of Manny Ramirez in 2010 (hopefully that won't be used as a reason NOT to do something, because of that fiasco/failure).

 

 

You have Sizemore, Carmona, Hannahan, Hafner, Carlos Santana (he'll be back soon), Dirks out now, Austin Jackson, Fister, Avila (banged up), Victor Martinez, Albuquerque, Raburn (AAA), Inge (waived), Worth and Santiago at 2B...Gerald Laird is their best RH hitting DH candidate.

 

The time to strike is now.

 

I agree. I think we can keep things as is for June and July, hopefully extend our lead to something very manageable, and rest Sale in August.

[southsider2k5]

By my count, Chris Sale has already thrown 1,064 pitches this season.

 

In his next start, he'll pass his entire 2011 major league workload at the 1/3rd mark of the season.

 

Three starts from now, he'll pass his entire MLB career (1,477 pitches) in 2 1/3 months (yes, this doesn't take into consideration Chris' amateur career before he joined the Sox).

 

 

The question I would have is does the fact that does the fact that Chris has let up quite a bit with the fastball (except when he really needs to dial it up into the 95-97 mph range) help his elbow's longevity, or is the biggest concern still the slider? In the 15 K game, the majority of the K's came on sliders, although he is throwing it statistically less often than he did in 2011 and 2010.

 

Is there any way to measure the torque on an elbow...vis a vis someone like Liriano, who threw his slider in the 89-92 MPH range at the height of his success in 2006.

 

One would think that because Chris doesn't throw his slider nearly as hard as Liriano that, heaven forbid, if he ever did suffer an injury or need surgery, he'd be much more likely to bounce back compared to what we've seen with the Twins' pitcher.

 

The amazing thing is that his velocity has actually gone up as the season has gone on. He was sitting 91-92 most of April. Now he seems to be sitting 95.