how would YOU fix the sox attendance woes?

[Paint it Black]

Lets call geograhpically close (within 4 hours driving) Which camp would you rather be in? MLB attendance #, next to AAA name. 8 of the top 10 teams in attendance, have a AAA team nearby.

 

Teams with AAA ball clubs geographically close to MLB affiliate

Toronto (Buffalo)-23

Philadelphia (Allentown)- 1

Boston (Rhode Island)- 8

Atlanta (Lawrenceville, GA)- 15

Baltimore (Norfolk)-20

Cleveland (Columbus)-29

Cincinnati (Louisville)-16

Detroit (Toledo)- 9

Chicago NL (Des Moines)- 10

St Louis (Memphis)- 6

Kansas City (Omaha)-25

Texas (Round Rock)- 3

Colorado (Colorado Springs)- 13

Seattle (Tacoma)-26

San Francisco (Fresno)- 4

Oakland (Sacramento)-27

New York AL (Moosic)- 2

 

Teams without AAA ball clubs georgraphically close to MLB affiliate

Minnesota (Rochester, NY)- 12

Washington (Syracuse, NY)- 14

Chicago AL (Charlotte)-24

Tampa Bay (Durham)-30

Pittsburgh (Indianpolis)-22

Milwaukee (Nashville)- 11

Los Angeles NL (Alberquere)- 5

Miami (New Orleans)-18

Houston (Oklahoma City)-28

San Diego (Tucson)-21

New York NL (Las Vegas)-17

Arizona (Reno)-19

Los Angeles AL (Salt Lake)- 7

 

Can't compare like this. Especially since places like Albuquerque, Las Vegas, and Reno are HUGE hitter parks, if I recall, and teams love to get out of those towns any chance they can. Vegas last year as a Toronto affiliate. Affiliates flip all the time so I don't think it's fair to compare "current" attendance data when many affiliates are held "in the past" if that makes any sense.

 

And yes, I realize that this may even help your argument. I just think that comparing mileage to attendance is VERY simplistic with way too much statistical noise going on.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Paint it Black

[ewokpelts]

Exactly. All these new fans will be used to paying minor league prices for baseball, they may not want to suddenly pay more for the MLB team.

minor league baseball will NOT hurt the major league product. just ask the red sox.

[BigEdWalsh]

Chicken or the egg question. You could argue that roaming instructors help develop better talent, and better talent makes your major league team better, which in theory should draw more fans to the big club.

 

I personally don't think having the White Sox in Kane County would have considerably. I think this because the "average" fan gives a damn about prospects. Further, I grew up in the western burbs and there just are not as many Sox fans out there, as say, the south suburbs. I don't see south suburban fans driving all the way to Geneva to catch a minor league game.

 

I guess I just disagree with your premise. If winning this year doesn't bring the fan base out to the game and "develop new fans" than why do you think having a low A affiliated team in Kane County would?

But a minor league affiliate in the western suburbs could help to develop more Sox fans out there. It wouldn't hurt.

[mr_genius]

Lower the price of tickets and parking. I shouldn't have to pay $25 to park at a Sox/Royals game coming from the West Suburbs. If they were just smart and lowered the price for the less in demand games for that and parking (a lot of their fandom resides in suburbs and Indiana), then they'd get a lot more attendance and it wouldn't look so pathetic on television.

 

 

^^^

[bigruss]

minor league baseball will NOT hurt the major league product. just ask the red sox.

Is this a joke?

[LittleHurt05]

minor league baseball will NOT hurt the major league product. just ask the red sox.

 

That's also the franchise with the longest sellout streak in baseball, so it might not be the best example to compare to.

[flippedoutpunk]

The sox need to appeal to the sometimes annoying casual baseball fan if they want to sell close to 30k a night. This is where the Cubs are so successful. Im guilty of having gone to more Cubs games this season than Sox games, and I get tickets free with my military I.D. with the Sox. I hate how after a white sox winner theres nothing left to do except take the red line home and hope to Allah that no one notices my iPhone and tries to rob me of my prized possessions. The Cubs games you get a chance to watch the great game of baseball (played not so greatly) and look forward to post-game festivities with some exploration of the rest of wrigleyville if you please. I have an easier time convincing friends and family to go with me to a Cubs game than a Sox game for this reason.

[Y2Jimmy0]

The sox need to appeal to the sometimes annoying casual baseball fan if they want to sell close to 30k a night. This is where the Cubs are so successful. Im guilty of having gone to more Cubs games this season than Sox games, and I get tickets free with my military I.D. with the Sox. I hate how after a white sox winner theres nothing left to do except take the red line home and hope to Allah that no one notices my iPhone and tries to rob me of my prized possessions. The Cubs games you get a chance to watch the great game of baseball (played not so greatly) and look forward to post-game festivities with some exploration of the rest of wrigleyville if you please. I have an easier time convincing friends and family to go with me to a Cubs game than a Sox game for this reason.

 

I am the opposite of this. Living in the SW Burbs, I love just getting in my car after the game and heading home. I have never once felt threatened right near US Cellular Field either. Im not opposed to going to Wrigley but the food at the cell is better and its a hell of a lot easier to get there.

[Paint it Black]

But a minor league affiliate in the western suburbs could help to develop more Sox fans out there. It wouldn't hurt.

I worked for the Cougars in High School. I admit I'm not a marketing expert, but most people who go to those games are people with small kids who can let them run around without any hassle (hell it's why my dad took me to so many games there as a kid). Also, the Cougars do a ton of business with corporate events/parties. I can't tell you how many guests we had ask me "Hey who are the Cougars affiliated with" or "Who they playing tonight" followed up with "who are they affiliated with."

 

I also ask this, the White Sox have not had a great track record of developing talents recently, nor do they particular draft well OR sign a ton of international talent. How the hell are you going to make any new fans out in the western burbs if you really are not sending good talent there? And that all assumes that people going to Cougars game pay attention.

 

I guess I just don't see any Cub fans or someone who doesn't follow baseball suddenly become a White Sox fan because the low A affiliate is playing in their backyard.

 

With that said, my parents still live out in St. Charles and I would go to tons of games if the White Sox were involved, but I would consider myself pretty diehard.

[Paint it Black]

The sox need to appeal to the sometimes annoying casual baseball fan if they want to sell close to 30k a night. This is where the Cubs are so successful. Im guilty of having gone to more Cubs games this season than Sox games, and I get tickets free with my military I.D. with the Sox. I hate how after a white sox winner theres nothing left to do except take the red line home and hope to Allah that no one notices my iPhone and tries to rob me of my prized possessions. The Cubs games you get a chance to watch the great game of baseball (played not so greatly) and look forward to post-game festivities with some exploration of the rest of wrigleyville if you please. I have an easier time convincing friends and family to go with me to a Cubs game than a Sox game for this reason.

 

 

People still believe this? There is a WORLD CLASS BAR right across the street. Don't want to pay an arm and a leg for a crappy beer? Go up to Halstead where there are tons of wonderful places to go or the other bars located off 33rd accross from Armour park (Turtles and Cork and Kerry). If your friends think there is nothing to do over there, show them up. I did this this season. Saturday night game and we went down to Bridgeport early. Got real nice and drunk and saw a great game.

 

And the Red Line is very safe over there, especially after games. Cops all the time. It amazes me that this stigma still exists, in both there's nothing to do or I'm going to get robbed.

[southsider2k5]

Lets call geograhpically close (within 4 hours driving) Which camp would you rather be in? MLB attendance #, next to AAA name. 8 of the top 10 teams in attendance, have a AAA team nearby.

 

Teams with AAA ball clubs geographically close to MLB affiliate

Toronto (Buffalo)-23

Philadelphia (Allentown)- 1

Boston (Rhode Island)- 8

Atlanta (Lawrenceville, GA)- 15

Baltimore (Norfolk)-20

Cleveland (Columbus)-29

Cincinnati (Louisville)-16

Detroit (Toledo)- 9

Chicago NL (Des Moines)- 10

St Louis (Memphis)- 6

Kansas City (Omaha)-25

Texas (Round Rock)- 3

Colorado (Colorado Springs)- 13

Seattle (Tacoma)-26

San Francisco (Fresno)- 4

Oakland (Sacramento)-27

New York AL (Moosic)- 2

 

Teams without AAA ball clubs georgraphically close to MLB affiliate

Minnesota (Rochester, NY)- 12

Washington (Syracuse, NY)- 14

Chicago AL (Charlotte)-24

Tampa Bay (Durham)-30

Pittsburgh (Indianpolis)-22

Milwaukee (Nashville)- 11

Los Angeles NL (Alberquere)- 5

Miami (New Orleans)-18

Houston (Oklahoma City)-28

San Diego (Tucson)-21

New York NL (Las Vegas)-17

Arizona (Reno)-19

Los Angeles AL (Salt Lake)- 7

 

You realize how loaded that is, right? The Yankees could have their AAA in Hawaii, and they would still draw huge numbers. The Rays could have their affiliate play in the same building at the same time, and they still wouldn't sell out the Trop.

 

[Y2Jimmy0]

I worked for the Cougars in High School. I admit I'm not a marketing expert, but most people who go to those games are people with small kids who can let them run around without any hassle (hell it's why my dad took me to so many games there as a kid). Also, the Cougars do a ton of business with corporate events/parties. I can't tell you how many guests we had ask me "Hey who are the Cougars affiliated with" or "Who they playing tonight" followed up with "who are they affiliated with."

 

I also ask this, the White Sox have not had a great track record of developing talents recently, nor do they particular draft well OR sign a ton of international talent. How the hell are you going to make any new fans out in the western burbs if you really are not sending good talent there? And that all assumes that people going to Cougars game pay attention.

 

I guess I just don't see any Cub fans or someone who doesn't follow baseball suddenly become a White Sox fan because the low A affiliate is playing in their backyard.

 

With that said, my parents still live out in St. Charles and I would go to tons of games if the White Sox were involved, but I would consider myself pretty diehard.

 

I understand your point but it could sway a young fan in my opinion. I have White Sox and Cubs fans in my family. I could have gone either way. When I was a kid, Frank Thomas came up. I am a White Sox fan because of Frank Thomas. What if a guy like Courtney Hawkins is awesome. If the Sox affilaite was in say Schaumburg, it is possible that a young kid could reasonably have Hawkins (or any other spect) as his/her favorite player. I know that isnt a scenario that is extremely common but it is reasonable.

[Brian26]

and from what I've heard, from some ex-minor leaguers, this concept is without merit.

 

What's more important, travel time for roaming instructors or developing a fan base?

 

Nobody gives a rat's ass about the Kane County Cougars. It's low level Single-A ball, on the level of junior college baseball, maybe. The Sox aren't shaking in their boots.

[Dick Allen]

I understand your point but it could sway a young fan in my opinion. I have White Sox and Cubs fans in my family. I could have gone either way. When I was a kid, Frank Thomas came up. I am a White Sox fan because of Frank Thomas. What if a guy like Courtney Hawkins is awesome. If the Sox affilaite was in say Schaumburg, it is possible that a young kid could reasonably have Hawkins (or any other spect) as his/her favorite player. I know that isnt a scenario that is extremely common but it is reasonable.

I would imagine the vast majority of Frank Thomas fans are fans because of what he did for the White Sox, not the Birmingham Barons.

As a Sox fan, it would be interesting to have a minor league affiliate in the area, just to watch once in a while. I really doubt it would have much impact on the future size of the fan base.

[thedoctor]

tricky question. to the sox's credit, they've tried a lot of things. retro-fitting the stadium, rolling out tons of game-day gimmickry, being involved and supporting the community more than the other team in the city, developing some (albeit lame) bar and event options, doing a great job of cultivating the latino fanbase, making splashy personnel moves, etc.

 

none of that has really worked. if anything, things are getting worse.

 

i think the stadium's location is always going to be an issue, unfortunately. it isn't going to become magically convenient to access nor is there likely to be development to the surrounding community that makes it a destination for people who are casual baseball fans.

 

there is probably merit to the ticket/parking price stuff. at the same time, does that happen at the expense of a competitive team? does lower revenue equal less talent?

 

although it was dismissed early on here (i haven't read all 11 pages) i do think there is something to the winning argument. yes, the sox have been a winning team. on the flipside, they've been unable to win one of baseball's most winnable divisions on a regular basis. rightly or wrongly, winning 83 games and missing the playoffs doesn't really feel like a winning season, even though it is.

[Eminor3rd]

I live in Andersonville, and I only go to 3-5 games each year because of the location. Paying ~$20 for parking makes no sense, but it's a 45-50 minute train ride -- which is fine on the way down, but such an incredibly slow and miserable thing on the way back when it takes 50% longer and is packed like a sardine can until about Belmont.

 

Even if the Cell was on Addison and Clark, though, I'd probably only go to 10 or so games a year. The fact is, I like to pay close attention to every pitch, and that's just better on TV. Going to the game is a cool experience, but as a daily fan, I'm always going to watch ~120 games a year on TV.

 

I'm sorry Jerry, I've chosen to consume your product via television. Good thing you still get bajillions of dollars from your TV contract.

[Iwritecode]

I guess I just disagree with your premise. If winning this year doesn't bring the fan base out to the game and "develop new fans" than why do you think having a low A affiliated team in Kane County would?

 

They didn't win this year.

[southsider2k5]

They didn't win this year.

 

They spent 120 days in first place. No one had any idea in April/May/June/July/August and the first two weeks of September that this team would run out of gas during the last two weeks of September. The whole "win and people show up" myth is busted as far as I am concerned.

[Dick Allen]

Once you get into Sept. and Oct. football takes over. I read something yesterday where 50% of people watching the NFL is due to fantasy football. Maybe one reason the Yankees didn't sell out on Sunday.

 

2011 had an impact on 2012 attendance. Bad season, lose Buehrle. Even in 2005, when the Sox were never out of first place, there were some lame attendance figures in September.

 

2012 should help next year's attendance. But 6 consecutive downturns should probably make Brooks a little nervous whenever someone tells him JR wants to see him.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Dick Allen

[BigEdWalsh]

i think the stadium's location is always going to be an issue, unfortunately. it isn't going to become magically convenient to access nor is there likely to be development to the surrounding community that makes it a destination for people who are casual baseball fans.

This is it in a nutshell. The ballpark location has a couple of things "wrong". There's the bad southside slummy perception in many peoples minds. The neighborhood is scary for the tourist or the suburbanite. Don't know if that will ever go away. Then to cater to the modern day fan you have to have the restaurants, bars, things to do.

All this aside, since neither of those things is going to change any time soon, you better be putting out a winning team.

[Eminor3rd]

They spent 120 days in first place. No one had any idea in April/May/June/July/August and the first two weeks of September that this team would run out of gas during the last two weeks of September. The whole "win and people show up" myth is busted as far as I am concerned.

 

Nah, I think it just applies to the next season. The problem is that they missed the playoffs. If they made a playoff run, I guarantee you'd see some nice attendance next season.

[Iwritecode]

They spent 120 days in first place. No one had any idea in April/May/June/July/August and the first two weeks of September that this team would run out of gas during the last two weeks of September. The whole "win and people show up" myth is busted as far as I am concerned.

 

It's going to take a lot more than spending a few months in first place to convince 20,000+ people to suddenly start showing up to the park every day.

 

Especially when nobody really believed in them at the beginning of the season and then their fears became reality at the end of the season.

 

This is not a problem that can be solved in a single season without a) winning a WS or b) building a new ballpark.

[southsider2k5]

It's going to take a lot more than spending a few months in first place to convince 20,000+ people to suddenly start showing up to the park every day.

 

Especially when nobody really believed in them at the beginning of the season and then their fears became reality at the end of the season.

 

This is not a problem that can be solved in a single season without a) winning a WS or b) building a new ballpark.

 

That is counter logical. How is what happened last season more relevant than what is happening this season, in terms of "winning"?

[Iwritecode]

That is counter logical. How is what happened last season more relevant than what is happening this season, in terms of "winning"?

 

Season tickets. People make the decision to buy them based on what the team did the previous season and what they expect the team to do in the coming season.

 

Just look at the attendance between 2004 and 2006. It jumped about 400,000 between 04 and 05. But it jumped almost 600,000 between 05 and 06. Then they missed the playoffs in 06 and it went back down again.

 

It's much easier to fill the park every night when the season ticket base is closer to 25,000 rather than between 10 and 15,000.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Iwritecode

[southsider2k5]

Season tickets. People make the decision to buy them based on what the team did the previous season and what they expect the team to do in the coming season.

 

Just look at the attendance between 2004 and 2006. It jumped about 20,000 between 04 and 05. But it jumped almost 100,000 between 05 and 06.

 

It doesn't change walk up though. The walk up this year was minimal.