Why so quiet so far?

[Balta1701]

Uhh, if you can limit your spending somewhere, you can spend more elsewhere.

If we could get down to that kind of money, we could rapidly:

 

Extend Quintana

Extend Santiago

Extend Beckham

Extend Reed

Have $30 million remaining to sign 2 marquee free agents (perhaps a 1b and an OF).

 

All of a sudden, the team looks competitive on paper, and if someone can remind them of basic defensive and baserunning fundamentals, they could be a force in the central ASAP.

[Buehrle>Wood]

What is the point of having a $20M rotation? Trying to compete with the Marlins? Danks is pretty damn good and it is pretty well established that pitchers dont get all the way back until the year after they return from an arm injury. There is no need to dump payroll from this roster with what is coming off the books already and additional money coming in. Its not like the Sox are going to be a Mecca for free agents. This organization has had a real tough time attracting quality free agents over the years and that doesn't look to change as long as JR is in charge given his affinity for Scott Boras. If this team is going to improve it will need to do so through the trade market, and that means giving up quality to get quality, not dumping salary to take on spare parts.

We don't attract any free agents because we don't go after them often. It's that simple. If we have 15 million dollars off the books, we can though. Hahn can use that to pay positional players. They will come to the highest bidder as they always do.

 

 

Who would you rather have going into next year, John Danks or a positional player worth 15 million dollars going into next year? I think everyone here would take the positional player (and yes, I realize it would never be in a vacuum situation like that).

Edited July 23, 2013 by Buehrle>Wood

[harfman77]

If we could get down to that kind of money, we could rapidly:

 

Extend Quintana

Extend Santiago

Extend Beckham

Extend Reed

Have $30 million remaining to sign 2 marquee free agents (perhaps a 1b and an OF).

 

All of a sudden, the team looks competitive on paper, and if someone can remind them of basic defensive and baserunning fundamentals, they could be a force in the central ASAP.

 

Name all of the marquee free agents to sign with the Sox in the last 25 years. I can think of two. I am all for holding down payroll to take money on in trades when the Sox are ready to compete, but selling low on Danks just to dump payroll hurts a lot more than it helps. If you trade him a year from now, I believe his value will be where it was pre-injury. Danks had almost the exact same career stats as Garza before their injuries, dumping him for salary relief now is just crazy. Everyone is in such a rush to dump the guy we just signed to what was viewed as a team friendly extension and then JR is going to do the same thing all over again, I just dont see it.

[Balta1701]

Name all of the marquee free agents to sign with the Sox in the last 25 years. I can think of two. I am all for holding down payroll to take money on in trades when the Sox are ready to compete, but selling low on Danks just to dump payroll hurts a lot more than it helps. If you trade him a year from now, I believe his value will be where it was pre-injury. Danks had almost the exact same career stats as Garza before their injuries, dumping him for salary relief now is just crazy. Everyone is in such a rush to dump the guy we just signed to what was viewed as a team friendly extension and then JR is going to do the same thing all over again, I just dont see it.

How are you defining "Marquee"?

 

Carlton Fisk

Albert Belle

Adam Dunn

 

That's 3 big money guys right there. Do we go down the list to Dye as well?

[harfman77]

We don't attract any free agents because we don't go after them often. It's that simple. If we have 15 million dollars off the books, we can though. Hahn can use that to pay positional players. They will come to the highest bidder as they always do.

 

 

Who would you rather have going into next year, John Danks or a positional player worth 15 million dollars going into next year? I think everyone here would take the positional player (and yes, I realize it would never be in a vacuum situation like that).

 

We have gone after plenty, I am sure some here are still crazed about the Torii Hunter saga. The problem is JR wont deal with the guy that represents a large percentage of the elite players in baseball and he is loathe to give out long term deals after the Albert Belle debacle. Players appear to prefer to play for other teams, it has been that way for a long time. Free agents have passed up more money from the Sox to sign elsewhere. The Sox had to significantly overpay Dunn and Belle to get them on board. The Sox had to trade for Peavy twice before they could get him before finally Scott Linebrink talked him into accepting the trade.

 

In addition there is no real quality free agents for the Sox to pursue. Cano will get re-signed, Ellsbury, Morales, and Choo are Boras clients, are Carlos Beltran and Mike Napoli the saviors for this franchise?

[harfman77]

How are you defining "Marquee"?

 

Carlton Fisk

Albert Belle

Adam Dunn

 

That's 3 big money guys right there. Do we go down the list to Dye as well?

 

Albert Belle and Adam Dunn, Fisk was closer to 30 years ago. Dye was more of a reclamation. The point is that it just doesn't happen regardless of the Sox financial situation case in point - these kids can play.

[harfman77]

Uhh, if you can limit your spending somewhere, you can spend more elsewhere.

 

Agreed, keep the payroll open so the team can expand the payroll to add pieces when they are ready to compete. Thats what makes building the farm so important, so their is ammunition to go make those type of deals.

[Eminor3rd]

Free agency is rapidly becoming less and less of a viable way to add talent thanks to the influx of early career long-term extensions, and the players the White Sox need -- big bats -- are among the riskiest and most expensive assets to buy. Note the similarity between all of these: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2013-anti-t...orst-contracts/

[Buehrle>Wood]

We have gone after plenty, I am sure some here are still crazed about the Torii Hunter saga.

So one guy who took a lot more money is plenty?

 

Players appear to prefer to play for other teams, it has been that way for a long time. Free agents have passed up more money from the Sox to sign elsewhere.

...

 

The Sox had to significantly overpay Dunn and Belle to get them on board.

Not really for Dunn. He turned down a three year contract from the Nats and signed with us because of the fourth year we offered. It was an overpay certainly later, but not at the time. Hell people here were ecstatic with it.

The Sox had to trade for Peavy twice before they could get him before finally Scott Linebrink talked him into accepting the trade.

 

Jake Peavy wasn't a free agent. This wasn't a case of us being able to offer him more money. It was us or the only MLB town he knew for the same price. Funny you mention it though, he did sign with the Sox as a very soon to be free agent for what was seen as a very friendly contract for us.

 

In addition there is no real quality free agents for the Sox to pursue. Cano will get re-signed, Ellsbury, Morales, and Choo are Boras clients, are Carlos Beltran and Mike Napoli the saviors for this franchise?

 

Are you saying John Danks for equal value is the savior of our franchise? Oh boy. Seriously, there's no need to spend it all in one place. If you do and it's the right fit, fine.

 

 

But really, why are we still wasting out time with this conversation? Nobody is going to take Danks' contract off our hands. And again, there's a very good reason for that.

[witesoxfan]

Free agency is rapidly becoming less and less of a viable way to add talent thanks to the influx of early career long-term extensions, and the players the White Sox need -- big bats -- are among the riskiest and most expensive assets to buy. Note the similarity between all of these: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2013-anti-t...orst-contracts/

 

You acquire big bats at a young age - either via trade or development (or both, whatever) - and supplement those with free agent bats.

 

With the vast costs tied to it, building through free agency is simply not viable any more. The Red Sox have gotten quite lucky this year, but how much of their success is still due to in-house talent? (and I am including Ortiz in that list)

[harfman77]

So one guy who took a lot more money is plenty?

 

 

...

 

 

Not really for Dunn. He turned down a three year contract from the Nats and signed with us because of the fourth year we offered. It was an overpay certainly later, but not at the time. Hell people here were ecstatic with it.

 

 

Jake Peavy wasn't a free agent. This wasn't a case of us being able to offer him more money. It was us or the only MLB town he knew for the same price. Funny you mention it though, he did sign with the Sox as a very soon to be free agent for what was seen as a very friendly contract for us.

 

 

 

Are you saying John Danks for equal value is the savior of our franchise? Oh boy. Seriously, there's no need to spend it all in one place. If you do and it's the right fit, fine.

 

 

But really, why are we still wasting out time with this conversation? Nobody is going to take Danks' contract off our hands. And again, there's a very good reason for that.

 

The extra year for Dunn was the overpay, not the contract. I thought it was a good deal at the time, and still think it was given the status of the team at that time. But again, overpay to try and sign a guy.

 

Peavy wasn't a free agent, right, which goes to the point the Sox have had a terrible track record of attracting free agents. The point is the reputation of the franchise is so jaded that it is tough to get established players to waive their NTC's. The Sox have not had a problem keeping guys once they have them, the problem is getting them in the door in the first place.

 

I think John Danks could net a return a year from now that is near equal to what the Cubs just got for Garza, especially when free agency hits this year and everyone has extra money to spend, making Danks' contract look more affordable. And yes I think that is worth a whole lot more than some retreads that the Sox could acquire in free agency. I just think it is very near sighted for a rebuilding team to dump assets without holding out for maximum value especially when this team is not out of payroll space by any means. I understand most people dont agree with me. I would re-sign Floyd this off season as well though to an incentive heavy one year deal with a team option. Mostly because the book on guys like Gavin is that their stuff is usually better after TJ surgey.

[Chicago White Sox]

If we could get down to that kind of money, we could rapidly:

 

Extend Quintana

Extend Santiago

Extend Beckham

Extend Reed

Have $30 million remaining to sign 2 marquee free agents (perhaps a 1b and an OF).

 

All of a sudden, the team looks competitive on paper, and if someone can remind them of basic defensive and baserunning fundamentals, they could be a force in the central ASAP.

Danks' contract doesn't prevent us from doing any of these things. We already have a ton of money coming off the books over the next two years.

 

I think dumping Danks for salary relief would be a huge mistake. At some point, you can only spend so much money productively in free agency.

[Balta1701]

Danks' contract doesn't prevent us from doing any of these things. We already have a ton of money coming off the books over the next two years.

 

I think dumping Danks for salary relief would be a huge mistake. At some point, you can only spend so much money productively in free agency.

Having the $30 million to spend in free agency might not match up with extending those guys unless some salaries are moved. I don't know which ones they will be. If Rios and Peavy are moved, then the money for all that is easy to find too, the only question remaining is whether the team has the cojones to go with 4 lefties in their rotation.

 

A month ago I was much more interested in dumping Danks for money than I am now. He's still not 100% there, but I'll agree, he's showing some signs that he could be even more effective than he's been the last couple years. That curveball really does seem like its improved. Most of the homers he's given up are on the change, if I recall the stat from his last start correctly, and that pitch is going to be impacted a lot by his velocity.

[GreenSox]

How are you defining "Marquee"?

 

Carlton Fisk

Albert Belle

Adam Dunn

 

That's 3 big money guys right there. Do we go down the list to Dye as well?

Fisk and Belle were big-time free agents.

There wasn't huge demand for Dunn, but he's probably #3.

 

We got Dye off the scrap heap. AJ too.

 

That's really not many marquees in JR's 30+ years. But, then again, I don't think that marquee free agents are a good idea anyway. too much money in too few players, who no longer have the incentive to play like they once did.

Edited July 23, 2013 by GreenSox

[Paulstar]

How many times in the past 20 years have the Sox likely had this much free payroll and such a desperate need for impact bats? Sure history indicates one thing, but this isn't the White Sox of the past 20 years who had some combinations of Frank Thomas, Robin Ventura, Ray Durham, Magglio Ordonez, Carlos Lee, Paul Konerko, Jermaine Dye, and so forth. This White Sox team is one of the sorriest offensive teams in at least my history of watching the Sox. To say that the White Sox aren't going to spend money on impact offensive bats in free agency and to use "history" as the reasoning is absurd in my mind. If anything, history shows the White Sox are willing to spend money on impact bats in free agency when they need to, as they showed that in 2010 with Dunn (needed a power hitting lefty to replace Thome) and in 1997 with Belle (needed a power bat in the OF).

 

I'm not saying the Sox will spend the money, no one knows whats going to happen, but if anything I'd say "history" points to the Sox signing at least one impact bat.

[GreatScott82]

How many times in the past 20 years have the Sox likely had this much free payroll and such a desperate need for impact bats? Sure history indicates one thing, but this isn't the White Sox of the past 20 years who had some combinations of Frank Thomas, Robin Ventura, Ray Durham, Magglio Ordonez, Carlos Lee, Paul Konerko, Jermaine Dye, and so forth. This White Sox team is one of the sorriest offensive teams in at least my history of watching the Sox. To say that the White Sox aren't going to spend money on impact offensive bats in free agency and to use "history" as the reasoning is absurd in my mind. If anything, history shows the White Sox are willing to spend money on impact bats in free agency when they need to, as they showed that in 2010 with Dunn (needed a power hitting lefty to replace Thome) and in 1997 with Belle (needed a power bat in the OF).

 

I'm not saying the Sox will spend the money, no one knows whats going to happen, but if anything I'd say "history" points to the Sox signing at least one impact bat.

I think the Sox will ultimately sign two bats. They just are not the full blown rebuild type of team.

[Buehrle>Wood]

How many times in the past 20 years have the Soxly had this much free payroll and such a desperate need fmarquee pact bats? Sure history indicates one thing, but this isn't the White Sox of the past 20 years who had some combinations of Frank Thomas, Robin Ventura, Ray Durham, Magglio Ordonez, Carlos Lee, Paul Konerko, Jermaine Dye, and so forth. This White Sox team is one of the sorriest offensive teams in at least my history of watching the Sox. To say that the White Sox aren't going to spend money on impact offensive bats in free agency and to use "history" as the reasoning is absurd in my mind. If anything, history shows the White Sox are willing to spend money on impact bats in free agency when they need to, as they showed that in 2010 with Dunn (needed a power hitting lefty to replace Thome) and in 1997 with Belle (needed a power bat in the OF).

 

I'm not saying the Sox will spend the money, no one knows whats going to happen, but if anything I'd say "history" points to the Sox signing at least one impact bat.

Or perhaps more relevant to this conversation, using a chunk of change to sign a bunch of midlevel free agents to patch multiple holes. People are getting too caught up in one marquee free agent. Assuming we spend it, I would much rather have 15 million of flexibility than use it on one pitcher off a major injury who has been nonexistent to terrible for three seasons.

[Balta1701]

Or perhaps more relevant to this conversation, using a chunk of change to sign a bunch of midlevel free agents to patch multiple holes. People are getting too caught up in one marquee free agent. Assuming we spend it, I would much rather have 15 million of flexibility than use it on one pitcher off a major injury who has been nonexistent to terrible for three seasons.

I don't think the sox really have "multiple holes" to fill as of now, particularly since they now have a starting catcher. That could change within the week though.

[thxfrthmmrs]

So the Cubs were able to trade Garza, and the Soriano to NY trade is gaining a lot of steam. We have similar trade pieces in Peavy and Rios, and whether those two are better trade assets than Garza and Soriano is debatable. Yet we aren't even close to be in serious discussions in any trade talks with Peavy and Rios. From the several sources around, it seems the Sox are asking for a little too much in return. Yet the Garza haul for the Cubs is pretty much what we can dream of, and they still got it done.

 

Part of me thinks the Sox are just reluctant to trade those pieces, and are still toying with the retool vs rebuild idea. We will be able see who's really in charge after the trade deadline, and it probably won't be Hahn. I would be really disappointed if we end up not making any majors moves at the deadline. There is no way we can be productive in the long term without trading away these pieces to replenish our farm, and none of the guys on our offense currently are players you can build an offense around.

[southsider2k5]

Fisk and Belle were big-time free agents.

There wasn't huge demand for Dunn, but he's probably #3.

 

We got Dye off the scrap heap. AJ too.

 

That's really not many marquees in JR's 30+ years. But, then again, I don't think that marquee free agents are a good idea anyway. too much money in too few players, who no longer have the incentive to play like they once did.

 

I can't believe you guys are forgetting about Jaime Navarro.

[cabiness42]

I can't believe you guys are forgetting about Jaime Navarro.

 

I had forgotten him on purpose, but now you've reminded me. Jerk.

 

[Al Lopez's Ghost]

I can't believe you guys are forgetting about Jaime Navarro.

No matter how hard I try, I can't forget Jaime Navarro.

[witesoxfan]

So the Cubs were able to trade Garza, and the Soriano to NY trade is gaining a lot of steam. We have similar trade pieces in Peavy and Rios, and whether those two are better trade assets than Garza and Soriano is debatable. Yet we aren't even close to be in serious discussions in any trade talks with Peavy and Rios. From the several sources around, it seems the Sox are asking for a little too much in return. Yet the Garza haul for the Cubs is pretty much what we can dream of, and they still got it done.

 

Part of me thinks the Sox are just reluctant to trade those pieces, and are still toying with the retool vs rebuild idea. We will be able see who's really in charge after the trade deadline, and it probably won't be Hahn. I would be really disappointed if we end up not making any majors moves at the deadline. There is no way we can be productive in the long term without trading away these pieces to replenish our farm, and none of the guys on our offense currently are players you can build an offense around.

 

You don't know this, and the Sox organization as a whole has always run a tighter and quieter ship. It's pure speculation on my part, but I think the Sox are closer on a lot of deals than people realize. They still have more than a full week to finalize deals.

[Jake]

There is no debate that Peavy and Rios are better players with better contracts than Garza and Soriano

[Eminor3rd]

I don't think the sox really have "multiple holes" to fill as of now, particularly since they now have a starting catcher. That could change within the week though.

 

With all due respect, Balta, how does this team not have "multiple holes to fill?"