Sox likely to be quiet in free agency after Abreu

[Quin]

A lot of us are advocating Ellsbury because we want the Sox to compete ASAP and we also know theres financial room for him .Beyond that we also know there's a 90% chance it won't happen because he should defintely get more than the 5yr/100M me and scs87 wish he'd get.

 

We want to get as good as possible as fast as possible while we still have our good core of starting pitching. This is where we have our fundamental difference.

 

You think we were so bad that its going to take a while to compete again wheras we see a lot of close loses thats can be turned into wins with defensive , hitting and baserunning improvement and Ellsbury provide s all 3 of those things . That's why guys like Ellsbury and Manny Machado and a handful of other are so valuable. There just aren't that many players in baseball who are good offensively and defensively. Then throw in his baserunning . It's very difficult to develop minor league pieces that might be ready right when our starting pitching starts disintegrating.

 

You also said when we get close then add that one big free agent piece but going after that piece and getting it are 2 very different things.

 

But I've enjoyed the discussion on both sides and am glad a poll or thread about Ellsbury didn't have to be made in order for everyone to get their 2 cents worth in about it.

 

Here's why I'm advocating for Ellsbury.

 

We could give him 7yr/$140M and McCann 5yr/$80M because our payroll is so low right now.

 

Then Dunn comes off the books and McCann can become the DH eventually.

 

Ellsbury is an all around player who did just steal 50 bags and I can't expect his speed to disappear completely next year.

 

I'm paying him that money for the next 2-4 years of him being a top flight player. His defense, ability to get on base, and power that he does have makes him incredibly valuable.

 

Same for McCann. I don't expect him to be a top flight C for his entire tenure in Chicago if he were here, but to get 2-3 years out of him then DH him? Sign me up.

 

Ellsbury and McCann, combined with Abreu, completely changes the complexion of the lineup. Ellsbury vastly improves the defense. Add in a full season of Avi and you may have the workings of a good offense to compliment the pitching staff. You could be in contention next year.

 

Edit: Also, for reference: AJ was 28 when we signed him and Dye was 30.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Quinarvy

[Balta1701]

Here's another way to look at it though...look how many wild cards we'd still be counting on even with those guys.

 

If Garcia, Abreu, and Viciedo hit .230 and had 50 HR between them total would anyone be honestly stunned? I have no idea what I will get from those 3 next year. Throw in these guys being as terrible in the field as they were last year and maybe either an injury or some struggles from the bullpen and we would still be talking about a 70 win team despite spending $250 million more on those 2 guys.

 

I'm willing to risk $68 million and some playing time on Abreu and these his based on that scouting report. For them to compete next year they need everything to go right...and signing McCann and Ellsbury would change that to "almost" everything needs to go right.

 

I'm not sure I'm willing to risk that kind of money on having a lot of things go right. Especially with the level of focus and discipline we saw from this team last year and the inability of the coaching staff to do anything about it.

[Marty34]

Because he was on the bench for the last two games of the World Series, I think Salty's price could drop into a comfortable range for the Sox on say a 3-year deal.

[LittleHurt05]

Navarro will turn 30 in Feb. He's a hard guy to figure out because he looked great in 2008 with the Rays (Caulfield should love that )when he was pretty much a full time catcher and hit very good against RH's. Didn't show much power then so I don't know what got into him last year unless it was just Wrigley Field. But since the Cell is also a hitters park maybe that bodes well if his warning track power suddenly played well in a hitters park. Maybe he just started pulling everything . I haven't bothered to look at his spray chart on his HR's.

 

I'm done with expecting players to hit more homers because they are playing at the Cell. I hear that with every new player and it rarely comes to fruition.

[Balta1701]

Because he was on the bench for the last two games of the World Series, I think Salty's price could drop into a comfortable range for the Sox on say a 3-year deal.

I don't think many GMs are dumb enough to have that impact anything. I think they're silly in other ways but not that one.

 

Maybe Theo.

[greg775]

I have a sneaky feeling Buck and Phegley will be our catchers next year. If the best we can do is Buck, I'd rather just have Phegs. Check Buck's stats the last 4 years. They suck.

[TheFutureIsNear]

Very underwhelming free agency class this year. Would anybody take a look at Sizemore? I know theres a good chance he ends up not playing or he just has nothing left, but what do we have to lose?

[Quin]

Very underwhelming free agency class this year. Would anybody take a look at Sizemore? I know theres a good chance he ends up not playing or he just has nothing left, but what do we have to lose?

 

Lillian is that you?

[GGajewski18]

Very underwhelming free agency class this year. Would anybody take a look at Sizemore? I know theres a good chance he ends up not playing or he just has nothing left, but what do we have to lose?

 

Garcia>De Aza>Viciedo>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sizemore....

[caulfield12]

Garcia>De Aza>Viciedo>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sizemore....

 

 

Lillian is the only one investigating Sizemore...

[beck72]

Bryan Pena is the free agent who makes the most sense. He'd be a platoon with Phegs. Flowers probably is gone.

[caulfield12]

Since the Cubs' thread is closed now, and this sort of fits into the Hahn/FA discussion, thought it was worthwhile to include.

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...,7811259.column

 

Do you think Haugh's being fair?

 

Other than Edwin Jackson and Ian Stewart, it's not like Epstein has made a ton of obvious mistakes, either. He's gotten rid of all the bad contracts like Marmol, Zambrano and Soriano. Some will take him to task for the bungled Dempster negotiations. Others, for little moves like Ryan Sweeney (his version of Jeff Keppinger, since he's now acquired him twice) that won't inspire the fanbase. It's hard to fault him for dealing Garza if they didn't believe 100% in him going forward.

 

In a lot of ways, the White Sox and Cubs are in similar situations, with the Cubs' being outfront with their minor league system by quite a bit and the Sox with the much better starting pitching depth and better overall talent in the starting line-up with the addition of Abreu now.

 

 

Lake LF

Castro SS

Schierholtz RF

Rizzo 1B

Donnie Murphy 3B

Sweeney CF

Castillo C

Barney 2B

 

That's a pretty terrible line-up. At least they have a catcher, but Darwin Barney is basically a mirror image of Gordon Beckham at 2B, Rizzo is their Viciedo, Castro's a mess and who knows which ND long-haired/golden-locked pitcher will show up to start the season.

 

Some are suggesting Daniel Murphy for LF over Lake.

 

Others want to repair the bullpen (same issue the White Sox currently have, among others) with Logan/Javier Lopez/JP Howell or Scott Downs.

 

The big signings would be Ellsbury/Choo for the OF or Tanaka for the starting rotation. Their back-up options in terms of pitching targets are Phil Hughes and Danny Haren.

 

Others want to bring back Jeff Baker as a utility INF/PH, or Brayan Pena to split time with Castillo.

 

Finally, concerns about Pedro Strop as a future closer suggest the possibility of bringing in someone like Joaquin Benoit as closer.

 

Other than bungling the managerial search so far, do honestly think he should sign any of those seven most expensive players? Who, if you were the Cubs' GM, would you sign to "fix" your team and inspire your fanbase, looking with your golden ball into the future with Bryant at 3B/LF, Soler in LF/RF, Almora in CF, etc. Maybe Olt at 3B, if he ever figures things out again, with Bryant in LF.

 

Are the Cubs in a place where signing an Ellsbury, Choo or Tanaka even makes sense?

 

Don't you have to find an anchor for your starting rotation to build around...or trade for one and trust your scouts?

Edited November 3, 2013 by caulfield12

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Here's why I'm advocating for Ellsbury.

 

We could give him 7yr/$140M and McCann 5yr/$80M because our payroll is so low right now.

 

Then Dunn comes off the books and McCann can become the DH eventually.

 

Ellsbury is an all around player who did just steal 50 bags and I can't expect his speed to disappear completely next year.

 

I'm paying him that money for the next 2-4 years of him being a top flight player. His defense, ability to get on base, and power that he does have makes him incredibly valuable.

 

Same for McCann. I don't expect him to be a top flight C for his entire tenure in Chicago if he were here, but to get 2-3 years out of him then DH him? Sign me up.

 

Ellsbury and McCann, combined with Abreu, completely changes the complexion of the lineup. Ellsbury vastly improves the defense. Add in a full season of Avi and you may have the workings of a good offense to compliment the pitching staff. You could be in contention next year.

 

Edit: Also, for reference: AJ was 28 when we signed him and Dye was 30.

I like your thinking even though we both know getting one of those guys is a longshot and both is insane. I hate the idea of Abreu on an island in the Sox lineup. He just got off an island and thrust himself into another one in the middle of the order. Let's get some good players around the guy quickly before he gets discouraged.

[GGajewski18]

I like your thinking even though we both know getting one of those guys is a longshot and both is insane. I hate the idea of Abreu on an island in the Sox lineup. He just got off an island and thrust himself into another one in the middle of the order. Let's get some good players around the guy quickly before he gets discouraged.

 

I agree. We cannot leave Abreu alone in the line up. Now the thought of Ellsbury and McCann is great but the Sox signing one of them is a long shot. We will most likely help Abreu through trade this off season.

 

I know the Rockies GM has said they will not trade Carlos Gonzalez but I can still see Hahn make a decent offer. I would offer Santiago, De Aza, Beck, and Thompson. I know it probably wouldn't be enough, possibly add Hawkins?

[TaylorStSox]

ok, if he's a switch hitter you've got a point, my bad for missing that. But the point stands, if we're signing a guy like that it really is being done with the idea that Rick Hahn thinks Josh Phegley is a starting catcher at the major league level and will show significant growth this year.

 

I got screwed up because Navarro's numbers were so good against lefties last year, 1.123 OPS when his career number against lefties is .778. It's also worth noting that career against righties....which is how he'd get the majority of his work if Phegley was the starter... .650 career OPS. So yeah, he can switch hit, but his weakest side is the side he'd get most of his work.

I actually still think Flowers has much more potential than Phegley. Flowers is flawed by having a slow bat. However, his swing is far more pure and effortless. I also think he has a much better eye, but is held back by his approach. He needs to be more aggressive. He falls behind in the count too much because he's trying to be patient.

[Jake]

The Sox are in a much better place next year. We have many more real MLB players on our team. Their bullpen and our bullpen are completely different. Ours has several young, established players that have experience in high leverage situations along with several more really talented guys.

 

Don't pat them on the back for trading Soriano, they're paying literally almost all of his salary. That was stupid.

[Balta1701]

I actually still think Flowers has much more potential than Phegley. Flowers is flawed by having a slow bat. However, his swing is far more pure and effortless. I also think he has a much better eye, but is held back by his approach. He needs to be more aggressive. He falls behind in the count too much because he's trying to be patient.

I feel like Flowers has had more of a shot, esp. given his age and the number of years he repeated AAA. That said...if Hahn was convinced that he's a legit player who was held back by an injury this year...that's plausible too.

 

I keep thinking that now that the 1b hole is full...catcher's spot is probably Hahn's hardest choice. There are legit options on the FA market who could help, but cost and age and record of consistency are questions for some of those guys. OTOH, Phegley and Flowers have both put up serious numbers at AAA, and if you could develop one of them into an "average" catcher, that's a huge, huge victory that could be a giant step in turning this into a competitive team again. On top of that, one of those guys was a rookie and the other had a nagging injury the whole year.

 

That's a choice I woudln't want to make.

[caulfield12]

The Sox are in a much better place next year. We have many more real MLB players on our team. Their bullpen and our bullpen are completely different. Ours has several young, established players that have experience in high leverage situations along with several more really talented guys.

 

Don't pat them on the back for trading Soriano, they're paying literally almost all of his salary. That was stupid.

 

 

What relievers do we have for the 5th-6th-7th innings?

 

Are you really convinced that Lindstrom's a good option? Will the real Nate Jones stand up? Is Addison Reed any better than Santos from 2011? The save percentages for the closer from 11/12/13 are pretty similar, low 80%'s. Decent, but hardly irreplaceable.

 

If you're counting Webb as young and established, but I don't think you are...

 

And we have massive issues from the LH side right now.

[witesoxfan]

I do want to clarify that I am not advocating the Sox bring in Ellsbury. I wouldn't be upset, but I think they can spend more efficiently, plus they do give up their 2nd round pick then too. I just think that, if they bring him in, they are an 83-85 win team as is.

 

Bryan Pena is the free agent who makes the most sense. He'd be a platoon with Phegs. Flowers probably is gone.

 

This really doesn't make sense.

 

-Flowers was a far better player than Phegley last year, even with a shoulder torn to hell

-Brayan Pena is a career .258/.292/.359/.651 hitter, including .262/.296/.377/.673 against RHP. He was decent in limited appearances last year. He's also going to be 32 next year.

 

Honestly, if they aren't going to bring in McCann, Saltalamacchia, or someone via trade, I really want them to go into next year with Flowers and Phegley. You save money and get another look at both of the youngish catchers who had success in the minors.

[caulfield12]

Wait a second.

 

What happened to Flowers' shoulder?

 

Was that an "all season long" lingering issue or has he had surgery?

 

I just knew he was having back problems and/or conditioning issues in terms of playing 5-6 times per week at the beginning of the season.

 

If that's the case, sigh, they probably should give him one last chance, because spending money on Salty or AJ doesn't make any sense where we are right now.

[Kyyle23]

Wait a second.

 

What happened to Flowers' shoulder?

 

Was that an "all season long" lingering issue or has he had surgery?I just knew he was having back problems and/or conditioning issues in terms of playing 5-6 times per week at the beginning of the season.

 

If that's the case, sigh, they probably should give him one last chance, because spending money on Salty or AJ doesn't make any sense where we are right now.

 

Really? You dont know?

 

Im being serious too, Im actually quite surprised you didnt know he had season ending shoulder surgery

[caulfield12]

Really? You dont know?

 

Im being serious too, Im actually quite surprised you didnt know he had season ending shoulder surgery

 

 

I didn't pay attention to the team after the trading deadline...except what the Garcia's and Viciedo were doing.

 

Couldn't take it anymore.

Edited November 4, 2013 by caulfield12

[witesoxfan]

I didn't pay attention to the team after the trading deadline...except what the Garcia's and Viciedo were doing.

 

Couldn't take it anymore.

 

Oh then you missed it, Jeff Keppinger hit .400 with 20 homers in the second half but he stepped on a nail that a crazed fan threw on the field and got tetanus.

[Eminor3rd]

McCann gets a QO, Salty doesn't over on MLBTR. I officially just want Salty now. I don't want to give McCann $100m and give up a pick on top.

[witesoxfan]

McCann gets a QO, Salty doesn't over on MLBTR. I officially just want Salty now. I don't want to give McCann $100m and give up a pick on top.

 

Yeah, I'm not big on McCann. I certainly think he could be a very good and valuable piece to have, but, to me, it's just as likely that he turns into a big pile of bust. If the Red Sox want to sign him, they can go right ahead.