When do you fire Robin?

[chitownsportsfan]

Absolutely. The only exception is when a guy goes into a game with a set pitch count from the get-go, like Sale's first start after the DL. Otherwise, he keeps going. I think Edwin Jackson threw over 150 pitches when he threw a no hitter.

 

 

Jesus, I pray to god Robin doesn't think like this. Careers have been ended on such stupidity, ask Johan Santana.

[chitownsportsfan]

Pitch counts matter when they greatly from that pitchers normal. Again, it is just like running a race. Just because a guy is a pitcher, doesn't mean he is ready to go 100 pitches. You have to be conditioned to go that far into a game. If you are a guy that comes out at 95-100 pitches, you won't be effective at 120 because you will fatigue and not keep your form. It is why you don't ask Usain Bolt to run the marathon, despite being the worlds "fastest man". The White Sox do condition their pitchers to go 120 pitches, which is why it isn't as big of a worry for me, except in exceptional situations.

 

John Danks has gotten deep into many games this year. He has highs of 115, 116, and 123 pitches this year. While on the higher end, it isn't out of his range of acceptable.

 

Honestly who really gives a crap about John Danks at this point? Squeeze every damn thing you can out of him. No offense to John but he got his money so even if the Sox blow out his shoulder again he's set for life.

[southsider2k5]

Honestly who really gives a crap about John Danks at this point? Squeeze every damn thing you can out of him. No offense to John but he got his money so even if the Sox blow out his shoulder again he's set for life.

 

 

Uh, as a Sox fan, I care.

[hogan873]

Johan Santana disagrees. He pitched a no-hitter on June 1, 2012. He threw 134 pitches after only making 3 starts with 100+ pitchers that year and taking 2011 off. He made 10 more starts in 2012 with an ERA of 8.26 and hasn't appeared in the majors since.

This is one of those cases where the pitcher needs to be handled differently. If he didn't pitch in all of 2011 and hadn't gone deep in a game since, maybe he should have been taken down. But, hindsight is 20/20. How many other pitchers have thrown a career high in pitches and had their career end? I'm not being a smartass, I am actually wondering.

[hogan873]

Jesus, I pray to god Robin doesn't think like this. Careers have been ended on such stupidity, ask Johan Santana.

I bet most managers think this way. As I said, unless there are special circumstances, most often the pitcher will be left to do what he does.

[chitownsportsfan]

Uh, as a Sox fan, I care.

 

 

I worded it poorly but the point is that you don't treat Danks and Sale the same, for example. Danks isn't a part of the next Sox playoff team most likely so if he goes 122 pitches and it somehow leads to him going on the DL again it's really not the end of the world.

 

 

[T R U]

Johan Santana disagrees. He pitched a no-hitter on June 1, 2012. He threw 134 pitches after only making 3 starts with 100+ pitchers that year and taking 2011 off. He made 10 more starts in 2012 with an ERA of 8.26 and hasn't appeared in the majors since.

 

Man there is no proof that the 134 pitches he threw that day led to him being terrible and ultimately finished in the big leagues

[southsider2k5]

I worded it poorly but the point is that you don't treat Danks and Sale the same, for example. Danks isn't a part of the next Sox playoff team most likely so if he goes 122 pitches and it somehow leads to him going on the DL again it's really not the end of the world.

 

If the guy is conditioned to go 120, he isn't going on the DL because he threw 122.

 

For example the year Santana threw 134 pitches, the highest total he threw besides that was 108. That is a pretty big difference.

 

 

[LittleHurt05]

Man there is no proof that the 134 pitches he threw that day led to him being terrible and ultimately finished in the big leagues

 

You are right, there is no proof. Given that he had didn't pitch the entire 2011 and had only reached 100+ pitches 3 times in 2012, I think it's safe to say it sure as hell didn't help his cause. An Edwin Jackson is way more conditioned to handle such a workload than Santana was in 2012.

[witesoxfan]

There is no causation, but there is most certainly correlation between the no-hitter and the number of pitches with his terrible pitching thereafter.

[southsider2k5]

There is no causation, but there is most certainly correlation between the no-hitter and the number of pitches with his terrible pitching thereafter.

 

Again, I think the biggest red flag is the differential between the 134 pitch outing and his next highest work load.

 

John Danks at 120 pitches the other night wasn't even his highest workload of this season.

[witesoxfan]

Again, I think the biggest red flag is the differential between the 134 pitch outing and his next highest work load.

 

John Danks at 120 pitches the other night wasn't even his highest workload of this season.

 

I'm not worried about Danks' workload at all. I was just talking about Santana.

[caulfield12]

So you are saying major league teams fear playing teams based on their manager?

 

Respect is a better word, perhaps.

[Dick Allen]

Respect is a better word, perhaps.

And the White Sox are not respected because Robin Ventura is their manager?

 

 

LMAO

[caulfield12]

And the White Sox are not respected because Robin Ventura is their manager?

 

 

LMAO

 

 

The Angels ran over us like we were a AAA team this year, and besides Abreu/Sale, we more closely resemble Charlotte than the best team in baseball.

 

Let's put it this way. Other teams, their fans....when someone like Maddon or LaRussa or Scioscia comes to town as an opposing manager, they'll say..."wonder how we're going to get outmanaged or outfoxed in this series?" It doesn't happen as much with baseball as with being outcoached in college basketball (for example, when Pete Carril coached at Princeton, Brad Stevens at Butler, etc.), but managers still have their importance.

 

But I've never in my entire life heard the fan of an opposing team say that about Ventura. Once. Ever.

Edited July 4, 2014 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

The Angels ran over us like we were a AAA team this year, and besides Abreu/Sale, we more closely resemble Charlotte than the best team in baseball.

 

Let's put it this way. Other teams, their fans....when someone like Maddon or LaRussa or Scioscia comes to town as an opposing manager, they'll say..."wonder how we're going to get outmanaged or outfoxed in this series?" It doesn't happen as much with baseball as with being outcoached in college basketball, but managers still have their importance.

 

But I've never in my entire life heard the fan of an opposing team say that about Ventura. Once. Ever.

I actually think you believe the BS you make up. Are there any posts on this board that state the Sox are going to be outfoxed by these guys? And if you are so in touch with opposing fans you would know Rays fans have often called for Maddon's head. Angels fans have called for Scoscia's head (and if Robin managed the 8th and 9th like he did last night, You would have told us how awful he is. And LaRussa,,,,,Hawk was a hero when he fired him. No fool. White Sox fans wanted him fired. Opposing managers don't scare teams or fans. Players do.

 

The other thing is all 3 were well under .500 as managers their first 2 years. I don't think anyone talked about being outmanaged by Joe Maddon when he was 70 games under .500. It is amazing how better players make you smarter. But there is no doubt Joe Maddon would have been considered an idiot manager if the Sox were 70 under in 2 years.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

I actually think you believe the BS you make up. Are there any posts on this board that state the Sox are going to be outfoxed by these guys?(Yes, if we had a search function I would be glad to dig them all up for you) And if you are so in touch with opposing fans you would know Rays fans have often called for Maddon's head. Angels fans have called for Scoscia's head (and if Robin managed the 8th and 9th like he did last night, You would have told us how awful he is. And LaRussa,,,,,Hawk was a hero when he fired him. No fool. White Sox fans wanted him fired. Opposing managers don't scare teams or fans. Players do.

 

 

Then why have managers, pitching coaches and hitting coaches....outfield/infield/baserunning, etc.?

 

I think you likewise don't believe it matters who the hitting coach is for the White Sox and that the Sox pitching results over the last decade would be exactly the same or better without Don Cooper.

 

Because I don't think anyone would ever argue that college basketball coaches don't win games for teams that have no business being in a game against a team with superior talent.

Edited July 4, 2014 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Then why have managers, pitching coaches and hitting coaches....outfield/infield/baserunning, etc.?

 

I think you likewise don't believe it matters who the hitting coach is for the White Sox and that the Sox pitching results over the last decade would be exactly the same or better without Don Cooper.

 

Because I don't think anyone would ever argue that college basketball coaches don't win games for teams that have no business being in a game against a team with superior talent.

College basketball vs. major league baseball? Are you serious? Is you job performance based on your boss or you? If you are good at your job, it must be because you boss is good, and if you boss sucks, you are not to blame if you suck, correct?

 

If you have bad players, you are going to lose. If you have good players, you will win. When you win, you become smart, because for some reason a lot of people, you included, think player performance is entirely on managers and coaches, except if White Sox pitchers suck.

[caulfield12]

College basketball vs. major league baseball? Are you serious? Is you job performance based on your boss or you? If you are good at your job, it must be because you boss is good, and if you boss sucks, you are not to blame if you suck, correct?

 

If you have bad players, you are going to lose. If you have good players, you will win. When you win, you become smart, because for some reason a lot of people, you included, think player performance is entirely on managers and coaches, except if White Sox pitchers suck.

 

I don't seem to recall ever saying that Yasiel Puig was "coached up" by Don Mattingly last year.

[GreenSox]

After a 2 day hiatus, time to refresh this one.

Another Robin Ventura dog and pony show.

Edited July 6, 2014 by GreenSox

[2nd_city_saint787]

Ya man, what an awful decision to bring in a LHP to face Cano...Managers shouldn't play matchups at all....Dreadful.

[hi8is]

Oh! Hey!! It's this thread...

Yawn.

[hi8is]

After a 2 day hiatus, time to refresh this one.

Another Robin Ventura dog and pony show.

You spelled it wrong. The word includes a number, damn it!

[GreenSox]

Ya man, what an awful decision to bring in a LHP to face Cano...Managers shouldn't play matchups at all....Dreadful.

Always a good idea in the 9th with this talented, experienced bullpen.

And who wouldn't pull one of the best hitters in MLB out of a tie game for a pinch runner!

Edited July 6, 2014 by GreenSox

[caulfield12]

Always a good idea in the 9th with this talented, experienced bullpen.

And who wouldn't pull one of the best hitters in MLB out of a tie game for a pinch runner!

 

 

Not to mention ending the chance for him to extend his hitting streak.

 

Oh, well.