Chris Sale and "Death by Diversity"

[Balta1701]

Actually it was repeatedly suggested on the likes of Fangraphs that the White Sox would not have a successful season despite all their signings. And if people predicted the Sox to have a poor season amongst vast predictions of a good season, they kind of deserve to say I told you so.

The remarkable thing about those projections was...they had just about everyone, particularly the top 3 on our pitching staff, taking steps backwards. Abreu and Eaton also. At the time I couldn't believe the entire roster would simultaneously take a step backwards.

 

D'Oh.

[southsider2k5]

IIRC almost exactly that was said right after the incident as well. I know it made news for sure.

 

yeah, so much for hindsight.

 

http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/...arter-clean-mri

 

"I'm proud of him," Williams said. "He stood up for himself. And the reason why this changed, when (White Sox manager) Robin Ventura said he was going to the bullpen, that was the course of the action, that was the game plan based on what he had communicated to (head athletic trainer) Herm (Schneider) and our medical staff.

 

"What changed was Chris Sale's phone call to me and saying, 'No, I think it's not exactly described as pain. It's more general soreness, and it's something I've had and I can get through this.' And he was adamant about it. He was adamant about it to the point to where he almost crossed the line."

 

Williams was taken aback at first by Sale's forceful statement, but he came around to it.

 

"I like that," Williams said. "I do like that because when you look at what turns a guy from a No. 3 guy to a No. 2 or a No. 1, there's a little bit of I can't use the word here. There's a little extra quality that can be aggravating to some, but in my mind it's an actual positive when you go out there to compete."

[chitownsportsfan]

SouthSider2k you sure do try hard to wrap up KW in your loving embrace, I give you credit for that but KW's statements wouldn't stand up to any halfway decent cross examination. He "came around" to it back in 2012 but today his recount doesn't mention any "coming around" just how he knew at the moment.

 

The guy likes to talk, that's my only argument. He talks to talk. The fact that he found it necessary to point out how he could win a fight, lmao. He should have just challenged Sale to a dick waving contest.

Edited June 11, 2015 by chitownsportsfan

[southsider2k5]

SouthSider2k you sure do try hard to wrap up KW in your loving embrace, I give you credit for that but KW's statements wouldn't stand up to any halfway decent cross examination. He "came around" to it back in 2012 but today his recount doesn't mention any "coming around" just how he knew at the moment.

 

The guy likes to talk, that's my only argument. He talks to talk. The fact that he found it necessary to point out how he could win a fight, lmao. He should have just challenged Sale to a dick waving contest.

 

You sure try hard to rationalize your irrational hatred of all things White Sox too, but if you are going to complain you should at least let it be based in reality. But don't let facts get in the way of another screaming at the clouds Abe Simpson style rant.

[Dick Allen]

I don't like KW, but his story with Sale has been the same since it happened. There is no hindsight here. Sale could have flopped, could have broken down injured, then KW would have been full of hot air, as he usually is, but this time, spot on.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

It was definitely a year too early. There were too many holes in the team. Trying to scrape your way to the second wild card is not a good strategy. Build a sustainable winner.

 

 

Actually it was repeatedly suggested on the likes of Fangraphs that the White Sox would not have a successful season despite all their signings. And if people predicted the Sox to have a poor season amongst vast predictions of a good season, they kind of deserve to say I told you so.

 

Still don't understand the year too early comments. I know it's your opinion and all but is Sox management supposed to sit on its hands with an ideal situation in front of them ? They needed help and got help . With the rarity of Sox playoff appearances what's wrong with wanting to make the playoffs ? You can't fill every hole in one off season . They filled a few and who's to say they won't add even more next year or at the trade deadline.

 

Maybe it's time you explained what you would've done this past off season with all the room to add salary and not having to give up a 1st rounder while also keeping in mind they have to put butts in the seats . What the Sox did was fine and it also stimulated the prospective season ticket buyers. If you think the Samardzija or other moves weren't good what should've the Sox added ? How much should the player payroll have been ?

 

Hahn has repeatedly said they are trying to build a sustained winner . Were his moves contradictory to that sentiment ? He didn't sign anyone over 3 years except Robertson and it's quite possible that some of the Sox pitching prospects will come of age in that 1-3 year period adding to the sustainability.

[Feeky Magee]

Still don't understand the year too early comments. I know it's your opinion and all but is Sox management supposed to sit on its hands with an ideal situation in front of them ? They needed help and got help . With the rarity of Sox playoff appearances what's wrong with wanting to make the playoffs ? You can't fill every hole in one off season . They filled a few and who's to say they won't add even more next year or at the trade deadline.

 

Maybe it's time you explained what you would've done this past off season with all the room to add salary and not having to give up a 1st rounder while also keeping in mind they have to put butts in the seats . What the Sox did was fine and it also stimulated the prospective season ticket buyers. If you think the Samardzija or other moves weren't good what should've the Sox added ? How much should the player payroll have been ?

 

Hahn has repeatedly said they are trying to build a sustained winner . Were his moves contradictory to that sentiment ? He didn't sign anyone over 3 years except Robertson and it's quite possible that some of the Sox pitching prospects will come of age in that 1-3 year period adding to the sustainability.

Well it was certainly a summer that money needed to be spent. I simply think we went the wrong way about it, buying players who have less long-term upside with little resale value if things go south. I would have spent money, just not in the same way.

 

I've said I would not have made the Samardzija trade, so I now have Semien who I start at second, and Phegley who can platoon catch (as well as Ravelo who I believe can be a major league first baseman). I said I would have gone after Miguel Montero, who was picked up for a 40 future value rated prospect as well as a prospect not rated yet by Fangraphs, so I give up a little more than that, something like Hawkins/Thompson. I said I would have picked up Wandy Rodriguez off waivers. I would have outbid the Giants for Nori Aoki. I would have gone after Brandon McCarthy. I would have gone after Jason Hammel. Danks to the pen. I would have gone after Luke Hochevar. I would have seriously considered Headley, but apparently he only wanted the Yankees, so I would have gone for Jung-ho Kang and platooned him with Gillaspie. I go after Seth Smith and give up a little more than Maurer to do it. I DH Avi.

 

Rotation:

Sale

Quintana

McCarthy (blew out his arm, but maybe that doesn't happen here, if it does I'd promote from within)

Hammel

Rodriguez

 

That's to start the year, and I have big depth (I love starting pitching depth) with Rodon, Junior Guerra, E.Johnson and my boy Surkamp as next in line to come up.

 

Starting:

Eaton CF

Semien 2B

Abreu 1B

Smith LF

Garcia DH

Kang/Gillaspie platoon 3B

Aoki RF

Montero/Phegley platoon C

Ramirez SS

 

Bullpen:

Danks

Petricka

Putnam

Whichever 2 of Rodon/Guerra/Surkamp that are not in rotation

Hochevar

 

I believe I spend about 100 million in this scenario, accounting for overbidding other team, as well as assuming the remaining 40 million on Montero's contact. I think it results in a much better team (bar the bullpen) with players that can more easily be flipped if things go south.

[LDF]

Well it was certainly a summer that money needed to be spent. I simply think we went the wrong way about it, buying players who have less long-term upside with little resale value if things go south. I would have spent money, just not in the same way.

 

I've said I would not have made the Samardzija trade, so I now have Semien who I start at second, and Phegley who can platoon catch (as well as Ravelo who I believe can be a major league first baseman). I said I would have gone after Miguel Montero, who was picked up for a 40 future value rated prospect as well as a prospect not rated yet by Fangraphs, so I give up a little more than that, something like Hawkins/Thompson. I said I would have picked up Wandy Rodriguez off waivers. I would have outbid the Giants for Nori Aoki. I would have gone after Brandon McCarthy. I would have gone after Jason Hammel. Danks to the pen. I would have gone after Luke Hochevar. I would have seriously considered Headley, but apparently he only wanted the Yankees, so I would have gone for Jung-ho Kang and platooned him with Gillaspie. I go after Seth Smith and give up a little more than Maurer to do it. I DH Avi.

 

Rotation:

Sale

Quintana

McCarthy (blew out his arm, but maybe that doesn't happen here, if it does I'd promote from within)

Hammel

Rodriguez

 

That's to start the year, and I have big depth (I love starting pitching depth) with Rodon, Junior Guerra, E.Johnson and my boy Surkamp as next in line to come up.

 

Starting:

Eaton CF

Semien 2B

Abreu 1B

Smith LF

Garcia DH

Kang/Gillaspie platoon 3B

Aoki RF

Montero/Phegley platoon C

Ramirez SS

 

Bullpen:

Danks

Petricka

Putnam

Whichever 2 of Rodon/Guerra/Surkamp that are not in rotation

Hochevar

 

I believe I spend about 100 million in this scenario, accounting for overbidding other team, as well as assuming the remaining 40 million on Montero's contact. I think it results in a much better team (bar the bullpen) with players that can more easily be flipped if things go south.

 

i can see that you thought long and hard on this, but Hammels and Brandon..... you lost me. now you do not go that Robertson. nah...

 

 

no offense.

[Quin]

Well it was certainly a summer that money needed to be spent. I simply think we went the wrong way about it, buying players who have less long-term upside with little resale value if things go south. I would have spent money, just not in the same way.

 

I've said I would not have made the Samardzija trade, so I now have Semien who I start at second, and Phegley who can platoon catch (as well as Ravelo who I believe can be a major league first baseman). I said I would have gone after Miguel Montero, who was picked up for a 40 future value rated prospect as well as a prospect not rated yet by Fangraphs, so I give up a little more than that, something like Hawkins/Thompson. I said I would have picked up Wandy Rodriguez off waivers. I would have outbid the Giants for Nori Aoki. I would have gone after Brandon McCarthy. I would have gone after Jason Hammel. Danks to the pen. I would have gone after Luke Hochevar. I would have seriously considered Headley, but apparently he only wanted the Yankees, so I would have gone for Jung-ho Kang and platooned him with Gillaspie. I go after Seth Smith and give up a little more than Maurer to do it. I DH Avi.

 

Rotation:

Sale

Quintana

McCarthy (blew out his arm, but maybe that doesn't happen here, if it does I'd promote from within)

Hammel

Rodriguez

 

That's to start the year, and I have big depth (I love starting pitching depth) with Rodon, Junior Guerra, E.Johnson and my boy Surkamp as next in line to come up.

 

Starting:

Eaton CF

Semien 2B

Abreu 1B

Smith LF

Garcia DH

Kang/Gillaspie platoon 3B

Aoki RF

Montero/Phegley platoon C

Ramirez SS

 

Bullpen:

Danks

Petricka

Putnam

Whichever 2 of Rodon/Guerra/Surkamp that are not in rotation

Hochevar

 

I believe I spend about 100 million in this scenario, accounting for overbidding other team, as well as assuming the remaining 40 million on Montero's contact. I think it results in a much better team (bar the bullpen) with players that can more easily be flipped if things go south.

 

We'd be in a lot worse position for both now and the future with this rotation.

[Feeky Magee]

i can see that you thought long and hard on this, but Hammels and Brandon..... you lost me. now you do not go that Robertson. nah...

 

 

no offense.

Hammel is pitching wonderfully with the Cubs and is a bargain. McCarthy was pitching excellently before he was injured bar a freaky HR/FB rate and who's to say he gets injured if he comes here.

 

We'd be in a lot worse position for both now and the future with this rotation.

I don't see how you can possibly make that argument. With the rotation we started the year with, we had Danks and Noesi as number 4 and 5, with their SIERAs of 4.46 and 5.06. My rotation has Hammel and Rodriguez as the 4 and 5s, with SIERAs of 2.86 and 3.99. Again, McCarthy mightn't go down if he's here and his SIERA was 2.48 to Samardzija's was 3.91, not to mention the cost given up to get him. And even if you say he still probably gets injured, I have Rodon to come up, and I give Junior Guerra spot starts.

 

As for the future, I have years of control on my pitchers that Samardzija doesn't and you don't want with Danks.

[OmarComing25]

Hammel is pitching wonderfully with the Cubs and is a bargain. McCarthy was pitching excellently before he was injured bar a freaky HR/FB rate and who's to say he gets injured if he comes here.

 

 

I don't see how you can possibly make that argument. With the rotation we started the year with, we had Danks and Noesi as number 4 and 5, with their SIERAs of 4.46 and 5.06. My rotation has Hammel and Rodriguez as the 4 and 5s, with SIERAs of 2.86 and 3.99. Again, McCarthy mightn't go down if he's here and his SIERA was 2.48 to Samardzija's was 3.91, not to mention the cost given up to get him. And even if you say he still probably gets injured, I have Rodon to come up, and I give Junior Guerra spot starts.

 

As for the future, I have years of control on my pitchers that Samardzija doesn't and you don't want with Danks.

I agree with you here but you are looking at it with a bit of hindsight. Rodriguez is 36 and hasn't pitched more than 100 innings since 2012. Hammel pitched significantly worse than Samardzija when they were both on the A's. If we had picked up both those guys instead of Jeff before the season people wouldn't have been nearly as happy. Also McCarthy has been a big injury risk for a while now, but we do have a track record of keeping pitchers healthy.

Edited June 13, 2015 by OmarComing25

[Feeky Magee]

I agree with you here but you are looking at it with a bit of hindsight. Rodriguez is 36 and hasn't pitched more than 100 innings since 2012. Hammel pitched significantly worse than Samardzija when they were both on the A's. If we had picked up both those guys instead of Jeff before the season people wouldn't have been nearly as happy. Also McCarthy has been a big injury risk for a while now, but we do have a track record of keeping pitchers healthy.

I said at the time I would have made those moves. I don't care if people wouldn't have been happy, I'm just saying what I would have done. And I didn't expect Hammel to outpitch Samardzija but I thought a few years of Hammel + Semien + Phegley + Bassitt + Ravelo > one year of Samardzija during a year where the team had holes.

[Balta1701]

I said at the time I would have made those moves. I don't care if people wouldn't have been happy, I'm just saying what I would have done. And I didn't expect Hammel to outpitch Samardzija but I thought a few years of Hammel + Semien + Phegley + Bassitt + Ravelo > one year of Samardzija during a year where the team had holes.

I would not have made those moves and thought the Samardzija for Semien move was exactly the opposite of what this franchise should have been doing before it was made. I talked myself into not being too angry afterwards and regret that I wasn't more pissed.

[Feeky Magee]

I would not have made those moves and thought the Samardzija for Semien move was exactly the opposite of what this franchise should have been doing before it was made. I talked myself into not being too angry afterwards and regret that I wasn't more pissed.

An underrated bad part of it was trading Phegley. I hate this 4A crap. Hitters that hit at AAA more often than not end up hitting at MLB.

[ptatc]

An underrated bad part of it was trading Phegley. I hate this 4A crap. Hitters that hit at AAA more often than not end up hitting at MLB.

There have been many hitters who look good in AAA but can't hit in the MLB.

[Feeky Magee]

There have been many hitters who look good in AAA but can't hit in the MLB.

Hitters that hit consistently well at AAA more often than not hit at MLB when given enough of a chance. Now, there absolutely can exist a fatal flaw in a hitter that's not exposed enough in AAA but is in the majors, but I stand by it that more often than not, they'll hit.

[ptatc]

Hitters that hit consistently well at AAA more often than not hit at MLB when given enough of a chance. Now, there absolutely can exist a fatal flaw in a hitter that's not exposed enough in AAA but is in the majors, but I stand by it that more often than not, they'll hit.

more often than not may be the case. Especially if you go by 51% to 49% being the more often than not. However, I think in today's game many of them don't get enough of a chance. Hitters have to nearly come out of the gate hitting or there is not much patience.

[southsider2k5]

Hammel is pitching wonderfully with the Cubs and is a bargain. McCarthy was pitching excellently before he was injured bar a freaky HR/FB rate and who's to say he gets injured if he comes here.

 

I don't see how you can possibly make that argument. With the rotation we started the year with, we had Danks and Noesi as number 4 and 5, with their SIERAs of 4.46 and 5.06. My rotation has Hammel and Rodriguez as the 4 and 5s, with SIERAs of 2.86 and 3.99. Again, McCarthy mightn't go down if he's here and his SIERA was 2.48 to Samardzija's was 3.91, not to mention the cost given up to get him. And even if you say he still probably gets injured, I have Rodon to come up, and I give Junior Guerra spot starts.

 

As for the future, I have years of control on my pitchers that Samardzija doesn't and you don't want with Danks.

 

McCarthy gets hurt pretty much every year. The one time he didn't was in his contract year. If you throw that year out, since 2007, his 3 highest starts in a season are 25, 22, and 22. That is missing somewhere between a month and two months in a good year.

[southsider2k5]

I agree with you here but you are looking at it with a bit of hindsight. Rodriguez is 36 and hasn't pitched more than 100 innings since 2012. Hammel pitched significantly worse than Samardzija when they were both on the A's. If we had picked up both those guys instead of Jeff before the season people wouldn't have been nearly as happy. Also McCarthy has been a big injury risk for a while now, but we do have a track record of keeping pitchers healthy.

 

Which I would bet it why we traded him very, very quickly.

[BlackSox13]

[/b]

 

Which I would bet it why we traded him very, very quickly.

The McCarthy/Danks trade is a while ago so forgive me if I'm wrong but didn't the Sox have durability concerns with McCarthy's high arm slot delivery that led to the trade in the first place?

 

IIRC, the Sox wanted McCarthy to lower his arm slot but McCarthy refused and not long after that he was gone. I think the Sox were concerned about how the high arm slot is tougher on the rotator cuff.

 

Where's ptatc when ya need him?

Edited June 13, 2015 by BlackSox13

[OmarComing25]

An underrated bad part of it was trading Phegley. I hate this 4A crap. Hitters that hit at AAA more often than not end up hitting at MLB.

It's only 85 PA, but I didn't realize he had an OPS of .855. Damn, would have been nice to have him instead of Flowers, even if his performance dips.

[Vance Law]

regret that I wasn't more pissed.

 

This is a nice tag line for you.