This blows my mind.

 

@SouthSideSox: Since 2014, the White Sox are 96-91 when Tyler Flowers starts.

https://t.co/BMiRsOORGy

Is that stat flawed from the perspective of who he catches? He clearly gets all of Sale's starts, which helps his odds and I think he probably starts less of Danks games, which again would help those odds.

Is that stat flawed from the perspective of who he catches? He clearly gets all of Sale's starts, which helps his odds and I think he probably starts less of Danks games, which again would help those odds.

That's all there is to it.

 

From the perspective that he is a Major League Baseball player, yes, he is good.

This blows my mind.

 

https://t.co/BMiRsOORGy

 

I guess he's good if being five games over .500 is someone's definition of good. Catching is one area the Sox badly need to upgrade.

 

Mark

This blows my mind.

 

https://t.co/BMiRsOORGy

 

There is literally zero correlation between the existence of Flowers in the lineup and winning

Is that stat flawed from the perspective of who he catches? He clearly gets all of Sale's starts, which helps his odds and I think he probably starts less of Danks games, which again would help those odds.

Sox are 27-20 in Sale starts. 23-29 in Danks starts the last 2 years. Flowers does catch Danks, at least usually, and hasn't caught Shark. I just think pitchers like throwing to him.

I guess he's good if being five games over .500 is someone's definition of good. Catching is one area the Sox badly need to upgrade.

 

Mark

5 games over vs. 19 or 20 games under in fewer appearances. I think it's significant. I am as sick of seeing Flowers strike out as anyone, but there is something to the staff throwing to him.

Edited August 6, 201510 yr by Dick Allen

There was a stat last year that the Sox had like an under .333 winning percentage when Nieto caught. Once it was broken down, it turned out he had zero Sale/Quintana starts and solely caught Danks/Noesi/Carroll/Rienzo and company, which explained it all.

There was a stat last year that the Sox had like an under .333 winning percentage when Nieto caught. Once it was broken down, it turned out he had zero Sale/Quintana starts and solely caught Danks/Noesi/Carroll/Rienzo and company, which explained it all.

6-26 in his starts.

 

I guess that explains it.

We all can agree that wins for pitchers are useless. Why are we suddenly putting value on wins for catchers, who have even less influence on a game?

5 games over vs. 19 or 20 games under in fewer appearances. I think it's significant. I am as sick of seeing Flowers strike out as anyone, but there is something to the staff throwing to him.

 

Dick:

 

My point is that regardless of it you are talking about five over or 20 under neither will get you into post season play.

 

Flowers is consistently one of the worst defensive catchers in baseball (and I understand defensive statistics are still a work in progress).

 

My own personal opinion is that I could care less what a catcher hits as long as he can actually catch the ball, throw out a decent number of base runners, frame pitches and call a good game. At best...at best Flowers does two of these things.

 

Catching is a deep, deep hole for the Sox with no one in the minor leagues at this point even close to upgrading the position.

 

This has got to be a priority this off season.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Mark

There is literally zero correlation between the existence of Flowers in the lineup and winning

Replace Tyler Flowers with a house plant and it probably wouldn't do much worse.

Edited August 6, 201510 yr by Swingandalongonetoleft

Replace Tyler Flowers with a house plant and it probably wouldn't do much worse.

 

well, for me, i am looking at him as being the #1 catcher again next season.

 

unless they go out and trade for one. but what will the cost be??

 

now, when the fa's comes around in the offseason, the priority is going some where else. i would assume.

I'm as frustrated by Tyler Flowers' lack of offense, but his defense is amazing. He's listed, by Statcorner.com, as #2 in MLB for pitch framing behind Francisco Cervelli of the Pirates. Gio Soto is #14. Out of 95.

 

I don't know how important pitch framing is compared to throwing out base runners or getting an occasional base knock (professional statisticians argue about the relative weights of these stats), but Flowers' pitch framing is why he is the preferred catcher behind the plate, especially compared to A.J. in years past.

 

If the Sox had decent players at all the other positions, we could carry a defense-first catcher. It doesn't help that we have a defense-first DH!

 

 

I'm as frustrated by Tyler Flowers' lack of offense, but his defense is amazing. He's listed, by Statcorner.com, as #2 in MLB for pitch framing behind Francisco Cervelli of the Pirates. Gio Soto is #14. Out of 95.

 

I don't know how important pitch framing is compared to throwing out base runners or getting an occasional base knock (professional statisticians argue about the relative weights of these stats), but Flowers' pitch framing is why he is the preferred catcher behind the plate, especially compared to A.J. in years past.

 

If the Sox had decent players at all the other positions, we could carry a defense-first catcher. It doesn't help that we have a defense-first DH!

 

in my opinion, if the sox had a decent talent up and down the lineup, a lack of a productive catcher would not be that noticeable.

I'm as frustrated by Tyler Flowers' lack of offense, but his defense is amazing. He's listed, by Statcorner.com, as #2 in MLB for pitch framing behind Francisco Cervelli of the Pirates. Gio Soto is #14. Out of 95.

 

I don't know how important pitch framing is compared to throwing out base runners or getting an occasional base knock (professional statisticians argue about the relative weights of these stats), but Flowers' pitch framing is why he is the preferred catcher behind the plate, especially compared to A.J. in years past.

 

If the Sox had decent players at all the other positions, we could carry a defense-first catcher. It doesn't help that we have a defense-first DH!

That site just shows he's been below average to maybe average at framing every year except this one. That's to even give that stat any credit at all. There's not a lot of evidence it's real or matters. His defense is not "amazing" at all.

Edited August 6, 201510 yr by Buehrle>Wood

Flowers sucks, but the difference between him and a typical catcher these days isn't enough to bring out all the disdain. He's not good, but look at the catchers in baseball. There aren't many who are.

 

I was at a game vs. KC a couple Sundays ago, and the Sox were stinking up the joint. a guy a section over put up with everyone sucking except when Flowers struck out he couldn't help himself.

 

It seems to be a theme in Soxville.

 

If Flowers was the Sox biggest problem, Robin would be getting his rotation set for the playoffs right now.

Flowers sucks, but the difference between him and a typical catcher these days isn't enough to bring out all the disdain. He's not good, but look at the catchers in baseball. There aren't many who are.

 

I was at a game vs. KC a couple Sundays ago, and the Sox were stinking up the joint. a guy a section over put up with everyone sucking except when Flowers struck out he couldn't help himself.

 

It seems to be a theme in Soxville.

 

If Flowers was the Sox biggest problem, Robin would be getting his rotation set for the playoffs right now.

 

 

yeah i agree.

 

nice post/

Flowers is one of Soxtalk's main whipping boys. The reality is he's an OK catcher. He gets in too many funks which seem to hit a lot of catchers. Believe it or not a radio guy here was ripping Salvador Perez the other day. Said he's worthless in the lineup cause he was 2-for-25. We should take a poll of yay or nay on Flowers. I'd give him a yay because he's average.

Edited August 6, 201510 yr by greg775

His defense hasnt been good. He's hitting has been awful to say the least. His pitch framing doesnt count into WAR which shows he isnt average. He's just bad. But we cant do anything about it until December. I mean Soto could get more starts or more time batting at DH. But that would be too logical for this coaching staff.

Edited August 6, 201510 yr by Baron

His defense hasnt been good. He's hitting has been awful to say the least. His pitch framing doesnt count into WAR which shows he isnt average. He's just bad. But we cant do anything about it until December. I mean Soto could get more starts or more time batting at DH. But that would be too logical for this coaching staff.

As soon as Soto started playing more, his numbers would decline. Flowers used to be that guy. People couldn't wait for AJ to leave.

As soon as Soto started playing more, his numbers would decline. Flowers used to be that guy. People couldn't wait for AJ to leave.

 

I was not one of those people at all. Heck even at his age AJ is having a very nice year for Atlanta. I imagine he's not gonna play much longer. But so far that decision was a mistake and it's still ongoing.

Edited August 6, 201510 yr by Baron

I was not one of those people at all. Heck even at his age AJ is having a very nice year for Atlanta. I imagine he's not gonna play much longer. But so far that decision was a mistake and it's still ongoing.

It was a mistake, but it didn't cost the White Sox any trophies.

 

Finding a really good catcher who can hit and play defense is a trick GMs pretty much luck into.

His defense hasnt been good. He's hitting has been awful to say the least. His pitch framing doesnt count into WAR which shows he isnt average. He's just bad. But we cant do anything about it until December. I mean Soto could get more starts or more time batting at DH. But that would be too logical for this coaching staff.

Flowers' caught stealing percentage is under league average: 24% vs. 32%.

 

Over his career, he is average: 27% vs. 27%.

 

The underperformance might be explained by having a rookie (Carlos Rodon) pitching every 4th day (Soto is catching Shark's games). I don't know for certain, but the pitchers are as responsible for stopping the running game as the catcher.

 

No catcher's pitch framing counts into WAR. Statisticians don't know how to quantify the effect. But our pitchers prefer to pitch to Flowers over A.J. Pierzynski when A.J. was the regular and Flowers was the backup. If our pitchers pitch better because of the comfort level they have when Flowers is the receiver, than keep Flowers behind the plate.

 

How much of Chris Sale's strikeout binge this season is attributable to pitch-framing? I don't know, but it helps to have a capable receiver back there.

 

Batting Soto at DH means that we need another backup catcher—bad idea.

 

I can't believe that I'm defending Tyler Flowers!

 

That said, if the Brewers wanted to sell low on Jonathan Lucroy, I hope the Sox would snap him up (in spite of his poor season).

It was a mistake, but it didn't cost the White Sox any trophies.

 

Finding a really good catcher who can hit and play defense is a trick GMs pretty much luck into.

 

I dont think asking a catcher to be good at one of the traits you stated above should be a problem. But right now he's been below average in both departments.