cant seem to find it anywhere online... does anyone know if Flowers is near the league leaders in men left on base while batting?

 

Now of course he doesnt play everyday, so it would need to be adjusted as LOB/game played or LOB/AB.

 

 

No idea but his career average with the bases loaded is lower than .100 now. That's like impossible.

 

"BUT...BUT...PITCH FRAMING!"

Tyler Flowers has left 122 men on base this year. Melky Cabrera is worst on the White Sox with 166 (numbers as of yesterday's box scores for qualified players are here). Melky actually, counting last night, appears to be leading the league by 1. No obvious correlation between leading the league and being a bad player - Buster Posey and Kris Bryant and Josh Donaldson all notably within the top 10.

Tyler Flowers has left 122 men on base this year. Melky Cabrera is worst on the White Sox with 166 (numbers as of yesterday's box scores for qualified players are here). Melky actually, counting last night, appears to be leading the league by 1. No obvious correlation between leading the league and being a bad player - Buster Posey and Kris Bryant and Josh Donaldson all notably within the top 10.

 

It's just even more noticeable when you're the worst player in the league.

 

I am talking about Flowers.

If you think Flowers is the worst in the league you aren't even accurate when describing worst players on the white sox.

 

Yes, it is fair for people to bring up that a catcher is great at working with the pitchers, as that is a huge part of the job. Hitters that are bad at that don't stay catchers because it matters.

It's just even more noticeable when you're the worst player in the league.

 

I am talking about Flowers.

Take a look at all 30 starting catchers in baseball, then tell me Flowers is the worst.

No idea but his career average with the bases loaded is lower than .100 now. That's like impossible.

 

"BUT...BUT...PITCH FRAMING!"

I love how Hawk combines Gio's offensive stats with flowers' to say "Our catchers aren't the problem."

I love how Hawk combines Gio's offensive stats with flowers' to say "Our catchers aren't the problem."

They aren't. As of a week ago, they had a higher collective WAR than the KC catchers, and no one would say catching is a problem in Kansas City.

I love how Hawk combines Gio's offensive stats with flowers' to say "Our catchers aren't the problem."

...I see nothing wrong with Hawk's statement.

I love how Hawk combines Gio's offensive stats with flowers' to say "Our catchers aren't the problem."

 

Considering that neither one plays another position, there is absolutely nothing wrong with combining their stats to assess your catching situation.

 

Our catchers are pretty much middle of the pack across all of MLB.

 

fWAR - 1.4 (16th)

wRC+ - 88 (13th)

AVG - .228 (18th)

OBP - .291 (20th)

SLG - .390 (15th)

HR - 16 (12th)

RBI - 49 (17th)

 

Hawk's absolutely right when he says our catchers aren't the problem. There is really a lack of quality catchers in baseball and the days of catchers being big time offensive contributors are over.

I love how Hawk combines Gio's offensive stats with flowers' to say "Our catchers aren't the problem."

 

Sox AL OPS Rank by position:

 

2B - 14th

SS - 14th

3B - 14th

RF - 13th

DH - 10th

C - 9th

LF - 8th

CF - 6th

1B - 6th

 

I'm not a huge fan of Flowers, but if you find a way to get even league average production from 2B/SS/3B/RF/DH, the combined productivity of Flowers/Soto is not going to be the difference between making and missing the playoffs.

I agree. Flowers sucks with the bat but it is what it is. Guys like LaRoche, Abreu and Melky were suppose to bring runs home. Abreu seems to be the most competent at it. That spells a recipe for disaster.

Sox AL OPS Rank by position:

 

2B - 14th

SS - 14th

3B - 14th

RF - 13th

DH - 10th

C - 9th

LF - 8th

CF - 6th

1B - 6th

 

I'm not a huge fan of Flowers, but if you find a way to get even league average production from 2B/SS/3B/RF/DH, the combined productivity of Flowers/Soto is not going to be the difference between making and missing the playoffs.

 

theory wise and using old school tech. i would say the dh, 3b, and rf in that order, should be up at least equal to or better 1b in production.

theory wise and using old school tech. i would say the dh, 3b, and rf in that order, should be up at least equal to or better 1b in production.

Around MLB, 1b is the best producing position on average in baseball, ~.780-.790 ish OPS. RF, DH, and 3b are the next set of positions, they're in the .750-.760 range. LF is a bit lower, then the 2b, SS, and C positions are very weak.

Considering that neither one plays another position, there is absolutely nothing wrong with combining their stats to assess your catching situation.

 

Our catchers are pretty much middle of the pack across all of MLB.

 

fWAR - 1.4 (16th)

wRC+ - 88 (13th)

AVG - .228 (18th)

OBP - .291 (20th)

SLG - .390 (15th)

HR - 16 (12th)

RBI - 49 (17th)

 

Hawk's absolutely right when he says our catchers aren't the problem. There is really a lack of quality catchers in baseball and the days of catchers being big time offensive contributors are over.

 

The catchers aren't the problem, but does anyone think Tyler Flowers is the solution? Even if you believe the pitch framing numbers as both predictive and accurate you can AT BEST make an argument that Tyler Flowers is an average starting catcher. That is absolute at best. Middle case he's bottom 1/3 starter and that's where I'd put him.

 

I do agree with Hawk and your post however -- catcher isn't the team's biggest problem. That would be 3B, RF and SS. Ramirez has been f***ing awful it's time to cut bait on him.

Around MLB, 1b is the best producing position on average in baseball, ~.780-.790 ish OPS. RF, DH, and 3b are the next set of positions, they're in the .750-.760 range. LF is a bit lower, then the 2b, SS, and C positions are very weak.

 

and you are right re bold, but according to the chart above, they are right in the middle of the packing according to the rankings.

The catchers aren't the problem, but does anyone think Tyler Flowers is the solution? Even if you believe the pitch framing numbers as both predictive and accurate you can AT BEST make an argument that Tyler Flowers is an average starting catcher. That is absolute at best. Middle case he's bottom 1/3 starter and that's where I'd put him.

 

I do agree with Hawk and your post however -- catcher isn't the team's biggest problem. That would be 3B, RF and SS. Ramirez has been f***ing awful it's time to cut bait on him.

 

The problem is I think it will be so expensive to improve catcher as opposed to our awful 3b/2b/SS/RF production that I don't see the infatuation with him considering he's at least very good at one thing.

and you are right re bold, but according to the chart above, they are right in the middle of the packing according to the rankings.

The second chart is rank in the AL, not across the MLB

and you are right re bold, but according to the chart above, they are right in the middle of the packing according to the rankings.

The White Sox are extremely weak compared to the extremely weak positions.

The White Sox are extremely weak compared to the extremely weak positions.

 

ok then i am wrong in my thinking......

One nice thing is that if Tim Anderson can play run neutral defense and slash 290/320/430 with 25/30 SB he's gonna be a 3 WAR SS. The position is that weak right now.

One nice thing is that if Tim Anderson can play run neutral defense and slash 290/320/430 with 25/30 SB he's gonna be a 3 WAR SS. The position is that weak right now.

A .750 OPS, neutral defense, and strongly positive on the basepaths? That sounds like >3 to me right there.

A .750 OPS, neutral defense, and strongly positive on the basepaths? That sounds like >3 to me right there.

 

, well that would be good too. Hard to tell with the positional adjustments. IIRC I just saw something on how the positional adjustments for '16 might credit ss and catcher and cf less and 1B and DH more based on recent trends at the positions.

 

You'd think it would be easy to find a DH that can OPS 800, but apparently it's pretty hard these days. Any Sox fan can f***ing tell ya that I guess.

A .750 OPS, neutral defense, and strongly positive on the basepaths? That sounds like >3 to me right there.

2014 Alexei was rated 11th out of 22 qualified shortstops defensively by Fangraphs, and with a .713 OPS and roughly average baserunning he was worth 3.1 WAR. Castro was 13th defensively (though a pretty decent gap from Alexei) and had a .777 OPS and 2.8 WAR, but he was terrible on the basepaths. Using this as a rough baseline the theoretical season above should definitely be above 3 WAR.

Flowers should play only to catch Sale or when Geo physically can't go. Soto is so much better and it's inexcusable to sit him so much in favor of Flowers.