2016 Catch All Thread

[Jose Abreu]

Today's lesson for my AP English students, analysis of Bob Dylan's All Along the Watchtower. I'll be playing the Hendrix cover mostly. Final four days of class.

What is the exact course? AP Language and Composition, AP Literature, etc.?

[Texsox]

What is the exact course? AP Language and Composition, AP Literature, etc.?

 

Literature. Seniors. I do not have dual credit this year so I am not so worried about final prep. We are using different materials to discuss what their future holds. So we're looking at a number of different themes.

[Texsox]

Anyone else too lazy to try to spell a word correctly? I usually just throw enough letters to get close then let spell check take over.

[Quin]

2 hour commutes suck

[Texsox]

I'm getting ready for my favorite lesson.

 

I have my seniors write down (in code if they prefer) every terrible thing that has happened to them. All the things they have been told they can not do. All the lies. All that kind of stuff. Then we pass the trash can and they rip it up. Throw it away. We're leaving that in high school.

 

Then I pass out a poem, this year Nothing Gold Can Stay. I have them section the back of the page into fourths. Using just one fourth of the page I have them write all the positive things. All of their very best attributes. Everything they know to be true. Then we discuss how this is the stuff that matters. Diplomas, degrees, awards, are all like shields, we can wave them around and they may help. But who they are and who they will become is armor.

 

And since they are all 18 and about to be high school graduates at the end of class I say "good by class" and they say "Goodbye Jim". In the south, calling an adult by their first name is a big deal. I do it to show that they are adults and have a different place in the world.

 

Like every year, I'm going to miss most of these people.

[Whitewashed in '05]

2 hour commutes suck

Yup, I lasted 3 years doing a 1.5 hour commute.

[southsider2k5]

Moved the kid from a 31 for the marking period to a 70. It was the major grade for the marking period. I do not take off points for being late, my focus is on the lesson and the student learning the material.

 

You don't think teaching timeliness of work is important at that age?

[southsider2k5]

Yup, I lasted 3 years doing a 1.5 hour commute.

 

I did it for about 15. SO glad those days are gone.

[Kyyle23]

Wow, that is really cool. (except for the baby bird, that kind of sucked)

 

It is interesting to see a top predator take out another top predator

[StrangeSox]

You don't think teaching timeliness of work is important at that age?

 

It's an interesting conflict and I know my wife's talked about it. How much of schooling is about teaching behaviors versus teaching the material? A "absolutely no late work" or "heavily penalized late work" policy will discourage a student from finishing work they're late on--they might learn a lesson about doing it on time (or maybe they won't!), but they won't learn the course material. And of course that now ties back into many teachers' evaluations being based on testing and student growth, stuff that just measures how much material they're learning and not timeliness, classroom behavior, etc.

[Texsox]

You don't think teaching timeliness of work is important at that age?

 

It is. But is it an academic or a behavior problem? Teaching kids to stay on task and not bother classmates is important. Should we deduct points on an assignment if they talk during it? Basically if you look at the required material that needs to be taught and the learning outcomes, timeliness does not appear anywhere.

 

I am conflicted as anyone, but by focusing on what a child learns, and not how or when, I believe I am a more productive teacher.

 

And aren't there some things that parents can teach as well? There is a lot more they can do than a teacher taking off some points on an assignment.

[Texsox]

It's an interesting conflict and I know my wife's talked about it. How much of schooling is about teaching behaviors versus teaching the material? A "absolutely no late work" or "heavily penalized late work" policy will discourage a student from finishing work they're late on--they might learn a lesson about doing it on time (or maybe they won't!), but they won't learn the course material. And of course that now ties back into many teachers' evaluations being based on testing and student growth, stuff that just measures how much material they're learning and not timeliness, classroom behavior, etc.

 

Or as I like to think, if the highest grade that can be earned is a 70, why should a student do more than 70 work?

 

I will give full credit, but I expect a better product if you take extra time. So what may be a 100 when turned in on time, may only be a 90 if you take an extra week. But if you greatly exceed what was a 100 on time, you could still earn a 100 turning it in a week late.

[southsider2k5]

It's an interesting conflict and I know my wife's talked about it. How much of schooling is about teaching behaviors versus teaching the material? A "absolutely no late work" or "heavily penalized late work" policy will discourage a student from finishing work they're late on--they might learn a lesson about doing it on time (or maybe they won't!), but they won't learn the course material. And of course that now ties back into many teachers' evaluations being based on testing and student growth, stuff that just measures how much material they're learning and not timeliness, classroom behavior, etc.

 

I do believe that school education is more than just what you learn from a test. Meeting a deadline with timely work is something that everyone is going to do no matter what job they do for a living. To me that is a critical lesson that is much better to learn as young as possible.

[Texsox]

I do believe that school education is more than just what you learn from a test. Meeting a deadline with timely work is something that everyone is going to do no matter what job they do for a living. To me that is a critical lesson that is much better to learn as young as possible.

 

But is it an academic or a behavioral problem?

[southsider2k5]

But is it an academic or a behavioral problem?

 

Yes.

[Texsox]

How is it an academic problem? If someone has a C in math what should that represent?

[southsider2k5]

How is it an academic problem? If someone has a C in math what should that represent?

 

Isn't a part of academics doing your work? How many of your bosses would have been OK with getting work 4 months late?

[Chisoxfn]

I did it for about 15. SO glad those days are gone.

Is your current gig not in Chicago (for some reason I thought you still had a pretty lengthy commutte via train). Or is it just directionally on a much closer part of Chicago than your previous job?

[southsider2k5]

Is your current gig not in Chicago (for some reason I thought you still had a pretty lengthy commutte via train). Or is it just directionally on a much closer part of Chicago than your previous job?

 

The job I started about three yeas ago is actually not in Chicago. Our next level up parent company is in Chicago, and I usually get up there 2 to 3 times a year. Their parent company is in NYC.

 

My office is a 35 minute drive away in Indiana, plus I work from home two regular days most weeks, and whenever I need to for the most part.

[Chisoxfn]

The job I started about three yeas ago is actually not in Chicago. Our next level up parent company is in Chicago, and I usually get up there 2 to 3 times a year. Their parent company is in NYC.

 

My office is a 35 minute drive away in Indiana, plus I work from home two regular days most weeks, and whenever I need to for the most part.

Never realized that. That is freaking awesome.

[southsider2k5]

Never realized that. That is freaking awesome.

 

It has been awesome. In fact there was one point somewhere during last fall that I had a headhunter calling me about a job in Chicago and promising a big raise. I actually turned down the interview because I had no interest in leaving this group.

[Iwritecode]

I did it for about 15. SO glad those days are gone.

 

I did a 50 minute drive for 11 years and a 2+ hour drive for almost 5 years. Now I'm less than 10 minutes from my front door to my desk.

[Texsox]

Isn't a part of academics doing your work? How many of your bosses would have been OK with getting work 4 months late?

 

The comparisons aren't always 1:1 between jobs and school. First off I can't fire a student. I am asked to evaluate how well they have mastered a set of requirements as outlined by the state of Texas. That set of requirements never mentions how fast they turned in the work. If they master the material on Friday instead of Tuesday, there is no place to note that info.

 

Would you boss appreciate you getting into a fight with a coworker? Of course not, but should I take points off their next assignment? Talking? Cutting class?

 

I'm not saying that timeliness does not matter. I am saying that there are other places to deal with that. We shifted late work to our behavioral system. Keep being late and you will have a a chat with one of our administrators after I have called home and tried to help you. Basically the grades are a direct reflection of your content mastery, your behavior is handled separately. For the students who are always late a trip to ISS is far worse than points off. Most don't really care about their grades anyways. They do care about meeting me before school to discuss the problem or a call home to mom and dad.

 

I think we agree that it is important. We just disagree on the effectiveness of taking points off an assignment versus dealing with it as a separate behavioral problem.

[southsider2k5]

The comparisons aren't always 1:1 between jobs and school. First off I can't fire a student. I am asked to evaluate how well they have mastered a set of requirements as outlined by the state of Texas. That set of requirements never mentions how fast they turned in the work. If they master the material on Friday instead of Tuesday, there is no place to note that info.

 

Would you boss appreciate you getting into a fight with a coworker? Of course not, but should I take points off their next assignment? Talking? Cutting class?

 

I'm not saying that timeliness does not matter. I am saying that there are other places to deal with that. We shifted late work to our behavioral system. Keep being late and you will have a a chat with one of our administrators after I have called home and tried to help you. Basically the grades are a direct reflection of your content mastery, your behavior is handled separately. For the students who are always late a trip to ISS is far worse than points off. Most don't really care about their grades anyways. They do care about meeting me before school to discuss the problem or a call home to mom and dad.

 

I think we agree that it is important. We just disagree on the effectiveness of taking points off an assignment versus dealing with it as a separate behavioral problem.

 

Again, this is a non-academic behavior that is vital to the workplace. Punching a co-worker is going to get me fired. Not doing my work for four months would get me fired. Not showing up to work without a good reason is going to get me fired. Your boss isn't going to care to decide if this is academic or behavioral.

 

With the testing enviornment and evaluations the way they are today, the temptation is to focus on those things, but the reality is there are un-academic skills are are just as important for that student. Being able to do timely work and being able to get along with others are two great examples of that, which aren't going to be found on any state standards, as well as things like attendance and work ethic. I honestly think it has been a shortfall for a long time with trying to create a match up between our education system and the workforce, which is why we keep hearing stories about some people being not ready for the demands of the workforce.

[Texsox]

Again, this is a non-academic behavior that is vital to the workplace. Punching a co-worker is going to get me fired. Not doing my work for four months would get me fired. Not showing up to work without a good reason is going to get me fired. Your boss isn't going to care to decide if this is academic or behavioral.

 

With the testing enviornment and evaluations the way they are today, the temptation is to focus on those things, but the reality is there are un-academic skills are are just as important for that student. Being able to do timely work and being able to get along with others are two great examples of that, which aren't going to be found on any state standards, as well as things like attendance and work ethic. I honestly think it has been a shortfall for a long time with trying to create a match up between our education system and the workforce, which is why we keep hearing stories about some people being not ready for the demands of the workforce.

 

I agree 100%. If the boss isn't going to care which one it is, and it is non academic, then placing late work as a behavior makes the most sense.