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20 Year Anniversary of the White Flag Trade

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You know what's funny, when this happened it was outrageous. Now it's accepted and pretty normal

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I hated it cuz I was a dumb high school kid who loved him some Wilson Alvarez.

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QUOTE (Soha @ Jul 29, 2017 -> 03:27 PM)
I agreed with JR. They weren't catching the Indians.

 

If I'm not mistaken, that team actually had a slightly higher winning percentage AFTER that trade than they did before it.

 

Those were three Free Agents-to-be, and the only player I really hated to see leave was Roberto Hernandez. He was a good closer, but he wasn't irreplaceable (Keith Foulke was an EXCELLENT replacement).

 

Wilson Alvarez was past his prime (and not worth what the Rays ultimately paid him)

Danny Darwin RETIRED after the 1997 season.

 

It wasn't a great trade, but I liked it then, and I STILL like it.

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QUOTE (Soha @ Jul 29, 2017 -> 02:27 PM)
I agreed with JR. They weren't catching the Indians.

They of the 86 entire wins to win the division that year, Indians? Yes, I can see how the genius owner could reach that conclusion then. I mean, how can you catch 86 wins. Would be a fool's errand to even think about trying!

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QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jul 30, 2017 -> 07:36 AM)
They of the 86 entire wins to win the division that year, Indians? Yes, I can see how the genius owner could reach that conclusion then. I mean, how can you catch 86 wins. Would be a fool's errand to even think about trying!

If you look at the performance of the traded players after the trade, you would realize he was correct.

 

Karhner was fine as the closer the rest of the year. Darwin was no loss. Alvarez was a loss, but did pitch like crap the rest of the season.

 

Foulke and Howry helped the team get good again.

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QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jul 30, 2017 -> 07:36 AM)
They of the 86 entire wins to win the division that year, Indians? Yes, I can see how the genius owner could reach that conclusion then. I mean, how can you catch 86 wins. Would be a fool's errand to even think about trying!

 

I'm sure JR made the decision to trade the players all by himself

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 30, 2017 -> 06:53 AM)
If you look at the performance of the traded players after the trade, you would realize he was correct.

 

Karhner was fine as the closer the rest of the year. Darwin was no loss. Alvarez was a loss, but did pitch like crap the rest of the season.

 

Foulke and Howry helped the team get good again.

If you look at the final record of that season, and see the Sox only finished six games back of a team that won the division with a mere 86 wins, then you would realize the owner was not correct in his conclusion a all. Instead of subtracting players the team should have looked to add players to close that measly 3 1/2 game gap, which by season's end, only grew to six games.

 

Again, Cleveland only won 86 games that season. It's not like they ran off with some insurmountable lead. How many times do you see a team that's only 3 1/2 games out of playoff contention fold their cards at the trade deadline like the Sox did that year? If there are, they're not many, and for those that have, they probably received the same fair criticism Reinsdorf did when this ill-advised decision was made.

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QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jul 30, 2017 -> 08:51 AM)
If you look at the final record of that season, and see the Sox only finished six games back of a team that won the division with a mere 86 wins, then you would realize the owner was not correct in his conclusion a all. Instead of subtracting players the team should have looked to add players to close that measly 3 1/2 game gap, which by season's end, only grew to six games.

 

Again, Cleveland only won 86 games that season. It's not like they ran off with some insurmountable lead. How many times do you see a team that's only 3 1/2 games out of playoff contention fold their cards at the trade deadline like the Sox did that year? If there are, they're not many, and for those that have, they probably received the same fair criticism Reinsdorf did when this ill-advised decision was made.

You're right. Not making that trade makes that team at least 6 games better, the amount they were behind when the season ended.

 

Your Reimsdorf obsession is sick, but hilarious at the same time. While everyone else is wondering what the deal is with Tim Anderson when he throws the ball into the stands, I bet you are blaming Reinsdorf.

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QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 30, 2017 -> 06:57 AM)
I'm sure JR made the decision to trade the players all by himself

Of course not. He had the sage Ron Schueler at his side advising him back then. You remember Ron Schueler, don't you? He was the guy brought in by the genius owner after the 1990 season as the guy who, the owner explained to us at the time, would "get the team from Point B to Point C", meaning a championship.

 

Reinsdorf fired the guy who got the team from "Point A to Point B" through successful drafts and trades that brought the team the likes of Thomas, Ventura, McDowell, Fernandez, Alvarez, Lance Johnson, Sosa, etc. But the genius owner deemed him unable to get the team to this "Point C" apparently because he wasn't very chummy in the office.

 

Meanwhile, when a "Point C" opportunity presented itself in 1997 with the team only 3 1/2 games out of first place on July 31st, Point C general manager and the genius owner went in the direction of the infamous "White Flag" trade. And Point C general manager would go onto never getting the team to Point C, ironically. Still wonder to this day if Point A to Point B general manager could have done so.

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QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jul 30, 2017 -> 09:02 AM)
Of course not. He had the sage Ron Schueler at his side advising him back then. You remember Ron Schueler, don't you? He was the guy brought in by the genius owner after the 1990 season as the guy who, the owner explained to us at the time, would "get the team from Point B to Point C", meaning a championship.

 

Reinsdorf fired the guy who got the team from "Point A to Point B" through successful drafts and trades that brought the team the likes of Thomas, Ventura, McDowell, Fernandez, Alvarez, Lance Johnson, Sosa, etc. But the genius owner deemed him unable to get the team to this "Point C" apparently because he wasn't very chummy in the office.

 

Meanwhile, when a "Point C" opportunity presented itself in 1997 with the team only 3 1/2 games out of first place on July 31st, Point C general manager and the genius owner went in the direction of the infamous "White Flag" trade. And Point C general manager would go onto never getting the team to Point C, ironically. Still wonder to this day if Point A to Point B general manager could have done so.

 

What exactly do you hope to accomplish by constantly telling everyone repeatedly at this site how much you hate Reinsdorf? Just curious

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 30, 2017 -> 07:56 AM)
You're right. Not making that trade makes that team at least 6 games better, the amount they were behind when the season ended.

 

Your Reimsdorf obsession is sick, but hilarious at the same time. While everyone else is wondering what the deal is with Tim Anderson when he throws the ball into the stands, I bet you are blaming Reinsdorf.

In your haste to try and take issue with my fact-based criticism of the owner who routinely brings you losing White Sox baseball, you conveniently skipped over the part where I said we should have "added" players at that deadline. Isn't that what all teams in contention at the deadline look to do? Add? What's "sick" is the team didn't, and let a team with only 86 wins walk away with the division.

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QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 30, 2017 -> 08:04 AM)
What exactly do you hope to accomplish by constantly telling everyone repeatedly at this site how much you hate Reinsdorf? Just curious

Don't change my message, please. I've never used the word "hate" when it comes to the owner. I have zero personal animosity to the man, as I've never met him. However, this is a White Sox message board, correct? And Jerry Reinsdorf is the owner of the White Sox, correct? And that means decisions he makes as owner have a direct bearing on the team's results and that which we as fans want to support? Well, do the math. Line up the years and years of those decisions with the results on the field, and see what you get. You get criticism of those decisions given the routine losing of the organization. The original poster of this thread brought up one of those decisions from 20 years ago that happened to be a doozy, and so I shared my point of view on that decision. I think I made valid points, but at no time did I inject emotion suggesting personal hatred for the man. I just want him to stop making bad decisions. Sadly, I've been waiting an awful long time for that to happen.

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QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jul 30, 2017 -> 09:17 AM)
Don't change my message, please. I've never used the word "hate" when it comes to the owner. I have zero personal animosity to the man, as I've never met him. However, this is a White Sox message board, correct? And Jerry Reinsdorf is the owner of the White Sox, correct? And that means decisions he makes as owner have a direct bearing on the team's results and that which we as fans want to support? Well, do the math. Line up the years and years of those decisions with the results on the field, and see what you get. You get criticism of those decisions given the routine losing of the organization. The original poster of this thread brought up one of those decisions from 20 years ago that happened to be a doozy, and so I shared my point of view on that decision. I think I made valid points, but at no time did I inject emotion suggesting personal hatred for the man. I just want him to stop making bad decisions. Sadly, I've been waiting an awful long time for that to happen.

 

This is such a steaming pile, you literally jump at every chance you get and actually make up reasons to constantly hate on Reinsdorf. This isn't even a debate, you constantly change conversations in order to do this. It's sad and you are a poor poster because of it. Which is a shame because I think you would have something to add to the site if you could get past/over/stop talking about your grudge.

 

Don't give me "this is a white sox messageboard" bulls*** either. Your stance is well known, there is nothing more you could add to it, you have been repeating yourself for years.

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QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jul 30, 2017 -> 10:17 AM)
Don't change my message, please. I've never used the word "hate" when it comes to the owner. I have zero personal animosity to the man, as I've never met him. However, this is a White Sox message board, correct? And Jerry Reinsdorf is the owner of the White Sox, correct? And that means decisions he makes as owner have a direct bearing on the team's results and that which we as fans want to support? Well, do the math. Line up the years and years of those decisions with the results on the field, and see what you get. You get criticism of those decisions given the routine losing of the organization. The original poster of this thread brought up one of those decisions from 20 years ago that happened to be a doozy, and so I shared my point of view on that decision. I think I made valid points, but at no time did I inject emotion suggesting personal hatred for the man. I just want him to stop making bad decisions. Sadly, I've been waiting an awful long time for that to happen.

 

How many times have completely different people asked you if Reinsdorf ran over your dog?

 

Either there's actually a Jerry-flattened dog, or you have a legitimate obsession with the man.

 

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QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jul 30, 2017 -> 09:07 AM)
In your haste to try and take issue with my fact-based criticism of the owner who routinely brings you losing White Sox baseball, you conveniently skipped over the part where I said we should have "added" players at that deadline. Isn't that what all teams in contention at the deadline look to do? Add? What's "sick" is the team didn't, and let a team with only 86 wins walk away with the division.

No. In your haste to tell us how evil Reinsdorf is again, you never mentioned who and what was available and for what cost at the 1997 deadline that would have easily made up the 6 games., and forgot the White Sox employ a GM.

You're a one trick pony. Reinsdorf, Reinsdorf, Reinsdorf....

 

SNL should do a skit.

Edited by Dick Allen

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QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 29, 2017 -> 04:50 PM)
You know what's funny, when this happened it was outrageous. Now it's accepted and pretty normal

 

True, the Padres actually were the first team to dump everyone back in 1993 but the difference was the Sox were 3 1/2 back and Cleveland had lost 10 of 14 right before the trade with the Giants.

 

I think that is what got everyone's attention.

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QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jul 30, 2017 -> 02:02 PM)
Of course not. He had the sage Ron Schueler at his side advising him back then. You remember Ron Schueler, don't you? He was the guy brought in by the genius owner after the 1990 season as the guy who, the owner explained to us at the time, would "get the team from Point B to Point C", meaning a championship.

 

Reinsdorf fired the guy who got the team from "Point A to Point B" through successful drafts and trades that brought the team the likes of Thomas, Ventura, McDowell, Fernandez, Alvarez, Lance Johnson, Sosa, etc. But the genius owner deemed him unable to get the team to this "Point C" apparently because he wasn't very chummy in the office.

 

Meanwhile, when a "Point C" opportunity presented itself in 1997 with the team only 3 1/2 games out of first place on July 31st, Point C general manager and the genius owner went in the direction of the infamous "White Flag" trade. And Point C general manager would go onto never getting the team to Point C, ironically. Still wonder to this day if Point A to Point B general manager could have done so.

Excellent post.

 

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 30, 2017 -> 04:33 PM)
Five years after the deal I did a long, historical story on that day and the impact at that time on the franchise. Here is the link for any interested:

 

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/in...y=2&id=1528

Amazing, must read article. The White Flag situation was despicable then and according to Lipman's beautiful writing and research, will always be remembered as a horrible part of our team's history. Good job on Caruso, White Sox. He really was a star.

I'm amazed this board has so many front office lovers when except for the beautiful, delightful, stupendous 2005, our organization blows chunks. The front office lovers can believe all our trades this time around have been great. Obviously I now want the trades to all be great as I WANT TO WIN. And I want more WS titles. I will wait and see on that. Lip Man's article is a must read. This is pure talent, Lipman. Good job.

Edited by greg775

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Greg:

 

Thank you. It took a lot of time to research, look through old video clips and so on. It was one of those stories that when I got into it, I really wanted to do it well and accurately.

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QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 30, 2017 -> 04:57 PM)
Greg:

 

Thank you. It took a lot of time to research, look through old video clips and so on. It was one of those stories that when I got into it, I really wanted to do it well and accurately.

I loved how you glossed over Howry and Foulke contributions and glossed right over the 2000 division title, they contributed mightily.in order to b**** about a division they weren't going to win anyway. Look at Alvarez's performance in SF. He had a bad rest of the season. Also of note, the next season after you wrote this claiming the league had "caught up " to Foulke, he had a great year and led the league in saves. And although you mentioned the Jaime Navarro disaster, you overlooked the trade of Navarro for Eldred and Valentin.

Edited by Dick Allen

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