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Lip Man 1

Day of Reckoning is Coming NCAA...

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Something good may finally be coming out of the college basketball scandal.  Me thinks Louisville (which is already on probation), Kansas, Arizona and LSU have a reason to be very nervous now...

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/at-least-six-college-basketball-programs-will-be-notified-of-major-ncaa-violations-by-this-summer/

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Stipends to players ( one size fits all) are a step in the right direction.

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17 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Stipends to players ( one size fits all) are a step in the right direction.

I think the better option is to not force kids to go to college if they don't want to. College isn't for everyone.

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I feel like we've been waiting for this bomb to drop for 2 years.

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On 6/13/2019 at 10:27 AM, ptatc said:

I think the better option is to not force kids to go to college if they don't want to. College isn't for everyone.

What are you suggesting?

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59 minutes ago, Texsox said:

What are you suggesting?

Similar to baseball where they have a true minor leagues. Or like hockey where they have a working agreements with foreign leagues where the US team owns their rights to play in the US.

This way they can all make a living and not pretend to go to college for a year.

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There is the D league already.

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On 6/15/2019 at 10:54 AM, ptatc said:

Similar to baseball where they have a true minor leagues. Or like hockey where they have a working agreements with foreign leagues where the US team owns their rights to play in the US.

This way they can all make a living and not pretend to go to college for a year.

I for one think that is a very good idea and have been in favor of this or something similar for a long time. I don't want to see young athletes deprived of a chance to ply their craft but the situation in college sports is beyond a sham at this point. You could literally write a book (I think it's been done numerous times) about the disaster that is college sports in the USA today.  

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29 minutes ago, SI1020 said:

I for one think that is a very good idea and have been in favor of this or something similar for a long time. I don't want to see young athletes deprived of a chance to ply their craft but the situation in college sports is beyond a sham at this point. You could literally write a book (I think it's been done numerous times) about the disaster that is college sports in the USA today.  

I think there needs to be another option, especially for football players, than the NCAA. While the NFL has a point about physical maturity, people shouldn't be forced to go to school if they don't want to. 

Colleges are academic institutions first, and if I were a lawmaker, I'd end college sports as they exist now. Those scholarships need to go to academics, not athletics. If you want to play a sport, you have to go to the minor leagues to do it. Either go to college or see if you can cut it. No academic exceptions whatsoever, other than accommodations for exams. If you want to go to any school, if you don't meet the academic requirements that John or Jane Q. Non-Athlete has to, you can't get in. Simple as that. 

One of the things that pissed me off when I was in college was the sheer amount of help that athletes got just for being athletes. I have autism, and I didn't get half of the accommodations that athletes did. 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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32 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I think there needs to be another option, especially for football players, than the NCAA. While the NFL has a point about physical maturity, people shouldn't be forced to go to school if they don't want to. 

Colleges are academic institutions first, and if I were a lawmaker, I'd end college sports as they exist now. Those scholarships need to go to academics, not athletics. If you want to play a sport, you have to go to the minor leagues to do it. Either go to college or see if you can cut it. No academic exceptions whatsoever, other than accommodations for exams. If you want to go to any school, if you don't meet the academic requirements that John or Jane Q. Non-Athlete has to, you can't get in. Simple as that. 

One of the things that pissed me off when I was in college was the sheer amount of help that athletes got just for being athletes. I have autism, and I didn't get half of the accommodations that athletes did. 

It's not a bad idea except for the fact that the money made through athletics funds many academic scholarships. The athletic money far and away exceeds any other money the university gets so getting rid of athletics will actually deprive the university students of academic scholarships.

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On 6/21/2019 at 5:12 PM, ptatc said:

It's not a bad idea except for the fact that the money made through athletics funds many academic scholarships. The athletic money far and away exceeds any other money the university gets so getting rid of athletics will actually deprive the university students of academic scholarships.

At my B1G uni, the money made by the sports programs stays within the athletic department. Now it saves the school from having to fund the athletics programs, and it may be the case that having the sports teams keeps alumni engaged to make donations, etc., but the revenue doesn't directly go to anything academic. Of course, the vast majority of D1 schools do not get enough athletic revenue to cover costs so tuition money ultimately funds the programs. This was the rationale behind UAB shutting down its football program, where the school paid $20 million to the athletic department to cover its budget deficit every year (although football is/was proportionally closer to covering its costs, the raw dollars are bigger than every other sport).

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1 hour ago, Jake said:

At my B1G uni, the money made by the sports programs stays within the athletic department. Now it saves the school from having to fund the athletics programs, and it may be the case that having the sports teams keeps alumni engaged to make donations, etc., but the revenue doesn't directly go to anything academic. Of course, the vast majority of D1 schools do not get enough athletic revenue to cover costs so tuition money ultimately funds the programs. This was the rationale behind UAB shutting down its football program, where the school paid $20 million to the athletic department to cover its budget deficit every year (although football is/was proportionally closer to covering its costs, the raw dollars are bigger than every other sport).

But there's way more too it than just the money at the gate. I'm going to use the examples for the schools I've been at - I graduated in Assembly Hall and the students here graduate in Reed Arena. Who pays for building those facilities? The athletic side does, but that creates facilities that the university can use. This school had the anti-Nazi event in Kyle Field when the literal Nazi Richard Spencer was holding his event on campus. When the University charges parking fees to people parking on campus to attend a game, do those parking fees to to the athletic department? (no, in most cases I know about they go to the parking services office). This university just built a top quality hotel <100 yards from the gate of Kyle Field, that hotel exists because it will be filled up at huge prices on 7 or 8 sundays a year, but it also has created some excellent new meeting space that the university groups don't have to pay to use. 

In other words, the money is fungible. Having those facilities around a university provides a number of other tangible benefits and revenue streams.

On top of those revenue streams...how much merchandise does a school sell based on their athletic department? All the Indiana shirts I have is money going back to Indiana as licensing fees. Why do those shirts get worn out and replaced? When we're good in March. It doesn't have to say Indiana Basketball on it, but that's what they get used for.

And then finally, if these programs did not exist, how much more would the universities be spending on marketing? Me wearing an Indiana shirt around here in March is literally the school getting a free billboard from me.

I'll grant that there are likely schools this logic does not work as well for, but saying that the revenue doesn't support the academic side really doesn't deal with how these funds and facilities work. 

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4 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

But there's way more too it than just the money at the gate. I'm going to use the examples for the schools I've been at - I graduated in Assembly Hall and the students here graduate in Reed Arena. Who pays for building those facilities? The athletic side does, but that creates facilities that the university can use. This school had the anti-Nazi event in Kyle Field when the literal Nazi Richard Spencer was holding his event on campus. When the University charges parking fees to people parking on campus to attend a game, do those parking fees to to the athletic department? (no, in most cases I know about they go to the parking services office). This university just built a top quality hotel <100 yards from the gate of Kyle Field, that hotel exists because it will be filled up at huge prices on 7 or 8 sundays a year, but it also has created some excellent new meeting space that the university groups don't have to pay to use. 

In other words, the money is fungible. Having those facilities around a university provides a number of other tangible benefits and revenue streams.

On top of those revenue streams...how much merchandise does a school sell based on their athletic department? All the Indiana shirts I have is money going back to Indiana as licensing fees. Why do those shirts get worn out and replaced? When we're good in March. It doesn't have to say Indiana Basketball on it, but that's what they get used for.

And then finally, if these programs did not exist, how much more would the universities be spending on marketing? Me wearing an Indiana shirt around here in March is literally the school getting a free billboard from me.

I'll grant that there are likely schools this logic does not work as well for, but saying that the revenue doesn't support the academic side really doesn't deal with how these funds and facilities work. 

This is all true and it would be interesting to see an attempt at accounting these things. That being said, I really do not believe the effects on academic budgets are very substantial and are on the order of fringe benefits. Of course, most of the university budget goes to purposes other than student instruction, so there's that...

Also, must be nice to have

Quote

When the University charges parking fees to people parking on campus to attend a game, do those parking fees to to the athletic department? (no, in most cases I know about they go to the parking services office).

At my institution, those revenues go to the private corporation that runs the parking 🤬

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6 minutes ago, Jake said:

This is all true and it would be interesting to see an attempt at accounting these things. That being said, I really do not believe the effects on academic budgets are very substantial and are on the order of fringe benefits. Of course, most of the university budget goes to purposes other than student instruction, so there's that...

Also, must be nice to have

At my institution, those revenues go to the private corporation that runs the parking 🤬

It depends on what you mean by student instruction. Do you include faculty salary in that? Faculty salary is typically about 70% of the budget. Administration is about 15%. 

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On 6/22/2019 at 4:37 AM, Jack Parkman said:

I think there needs to be another option, especially for football players, than the NCAA. While the NFL has a point about physical maturity, people shouldn't be forced to go to school if they don't want to. 

Colleges are academic institutions first, and if I were a lawmaker, I'd end college sports as they exist now. Those scholarships need to go to academics, not athletics. If you want to play a sport, you have to go to the minor leagues to do it. Either go to college or see if you can cut it. No academic exceptions whatsoever, other than accommodations for exams. If you want to go to any school, if you don't meet the academic requirements that John or Jane Q. Non-Athlete has to, you can't get in. Simple as that. 

One of the things that pissed me off when I was in college was the sheer amount of help that athletes got just for being athletes. I have autism, and I didn't get half of the accommodations that athletes did. 

The problem with that is it will be even more of an “indentured servitude” issue for the NBA and NFL...look at all the stories over the last five years or so about the minimum wage or below salaries in the low minors and minuscule per diems that barely cover McDonalds.  Of course, there’s also that anti-trust exemption to protect the owners, unique to the sport. 

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At many universities like Kansas, the academic side actually contributes to athletics when the athletic side is much more financially stable/profitable than the academic side.

That looks like it is changing. At Kansas I believe the academic side has cut its donation to the athletic department which is a private corporation significantly next year with the goal to give no money to athletics relatively soon. 

There's really no way to rein in this runaway train called college athletics. Look at the salaries of head coaches of bball and football. Isn't coach Cal up to 8 mill a year? Football facilities ... football coaching staffs now full of analysts (if you are young you might want to try to get into that field; big bucks, fun work if you know analytics) as well as assistants. Practice gyms going up everywhere; weight facilities; trips to foreign countries every 4 years; private flights to games for pretty much all sports now most certainly football and men's bball. But like I said almost all teams travel private now.

The government needs to tax these programs. But as far as stopping all this ... nope. ESPN wants it this way and is paying for so much of it along with the shoe companies. CBS is paying for it with its NCAA tournament deal. It's bizarre yes, but colleges are all bout athletics now.

Edited by greg775

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2 hours ago, greg775 said:

At many universities like Kansas, the academic side actually contributes to athletics when the athletic side is much more financially stable/profitable than the academic side.

That looks like it is changing. At Kansas I believe the academic side has cut its donation to the athletic department which is a private corporation significantly next year with the goal to give no money to athletics relatively soon. 

There's really no way to rein in this runaway train called college athletics. Look at the salaries of head coaches of bball and football. Isn't coach Cal up to 8 mill a year? Football facilities ... football coaching staffs now full of analysts (if you are young you might want to try to get into that field; big bucks, fun work if you know analytics) as well as assistants. Practice gyms going up everywhere; weight facilities; trips to foreign countries every 4 years; private flights to games for pretty much all sports now most certainly football and men's bball. But like I said almost all teams travel private now.

The government needs to tax these programs. But as far as stopping all this ... nope. ESPN wants it this way and is paying for so much of it along with the shoe companies. CBS is paying for it with its NCAA tournament deal. It's bizarre yes, but colleges are all bout athletics now.

I highly doubt that the academic side contributes to the athletic programs at Kansas. Most big highly successful programs like Kansas generate so much more revenue than academia can. The government does tax most of the revenue from athletics. None of the sports have private transportation unless you consider charter flights private. 

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Football analysts don't really handle analytics. They are additional coaches, just paid less.

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The revenue sports are the front door displays to the university. It gets the university on a high school kid's radar. It's bragging rights and campus culture. They fund opportunities for the non revenue sports and activities like band. Someone already mentioned the money that visitors and fans contribute. 

Some athletes use a college as a stepping stone for a career as a pro athlete, most do not. They receive a degree and go on to careers. 

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On 6/25/2019 at 6:42 PM, ptatc said:

It depends on what you mean by student instruction. Do you include faculty salary in that? Faculty salary is typically about 70% of the budget. Administration is about 15%. 

At Illinois State, faculty pay makes up 33% of the budget (link). In the Cal system, about 25% and about 40% in the Cal State system (link). I'm not sure how that differs at smaller institutions, although not many of them would be D1 in athletics.

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1 hour ago, Jake said:

At Illinois State, faculty pay makes up 33% of the budget (link). In the Cal system, about 25% and about 40% in the Cal State system (link). I'm not sure how that differs at smaller institutions, although not many of them would be D1 in athletics.

You were looking at fy18 and didn't include the support or the contractual, which still only brings it up to 50% which is low.

Look at fy19. Faculty is up to 52% plus contractual brings it up to about 70%.

My only experience is with Illinois schools but they tend to be in that area when you look at all of the line items related to faculty, adjunct, lecturers and lab assistants etc.

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The ugly side of sports will be on display. It makes me sad to read.

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5 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Hopefully all of this will lead to a change in the one and done rule the NBA has. However, since all of this has no effect on the NBA maybe it won't.

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