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All Star Jose Abreu

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54 minutes ago, SI1020 said:

Now as to the subject at hand. I will never understand the vitriol so many Sox fans have had for Jose Abreu. He is the most productive hitter on the team since Frank Thomas. HIs BA has been down a bit this year but he has always been streaky and he's a hot streak or two away from approaching .300 at the plate. His defense is suspect but I like the way he scoops, and that is very important for me when it comes to a first baseman. Tim Anderson in particular owes him a bunch of steak dinners or arroz con pollo if Jose prefers something like that. He deserves his spot on the AL all star team.  

Over a 13 year period Paul Konerko put up an .866 OPS. Jose Abreu has put up an .865 OPS over 6 seasons. 

I kinda understand the vitriol for Abreu. It's people getting tired of statements like yours and constantly having to turn them around. He's a good but not great hitter. I have no problem keeping him around for another year or two. But that doesn't mean you have to oversell him, and it's not an insult to Abreu point out that you just ignored what Paul Konerko did over 13 years.

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Based on his comments last night I suspect he really wants to stick around and will give the Sox a "hometown discount" Which of course is always music to JR's ears.

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2 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Based on his comments last night I suspect he really wants to stick around and will give the Sox a "hometown discount" Which of course is always music to JR's ears.

I wonder what spurred his comments. Maybe he's been wanting the extension but Sox brass hasn't offered what he wants?

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3 hours ago, vilehoopster said:

People trying to force Abreu into only DHing or not paying him what he wants are arguing two BIG assumptions as if they were total facts. And they're not facts and really very questionable.

1st assumption: Vaughn is gonna be great and he's gonna be here next year. There's a lot of doubt to both parts of this assumption. I think he's gonna be really good, but we can't assume that like it's a fact. Do I need to bring up some other Sox 1st round draft results? Jake Burger, Burdi, Carson Fulmer; anyone seen Keon Barnum lately? Now, I don't think Vaugh is gonna be a bust; but it's totally unrealistic to think he's going to be playing 1st base for the White Sox next year. It could happen, but because of so many different factors, the odds are really low of that happening.

2nd assumption: Abreu is now on or is about to begin on some sort of speedy downward slope of his abilities, both hitting and fielding, that he's about to suddenly be too old to be any good. I understand that he's over 30, but he far from old. And he's having the best year of his career right now, this year. There is no indication that his skills are failing. I realize that Father Time always wins, but he's not winning so far with Abreu . . . games yesterday and pretty much this entire year show this.

Keep Abreu, pay enough to keep him happy (don't insult him with a low-ball offer of forcing him out of playing 1st base) and let's keep him doing what he did yesterday, both games, let's keep him doing that for a few more years. You guys were willing to give a total dick like Machado over 30 million a year for 10 years, but now you're wanting to nickel and dime a loyal soldier who has been here for the worst of the rebuild? Come on; it makes no sense.

 

3 hours ago, vilehoopster said:

People trying to force Abreu into only DHing or not paying him what he wants are arguing two BIG assumptions as if they were total facts. And they're not facts and really very questionable.

1st assumption: Vaughn is gonna be great and he's gonna be here next year. There's a lot of doubt to both parts of this assumption. I think he's gonna be really good, but we can't assume that like it's a fact. Do I need to bring up some other Sox 1st round draft results? Jake Burger, Burdi, Carson Fulmer; anyone seen Keon Barnum lately? Now, I don't think Vaugh is gonna be a bust; but it's totally unrealistic to think he's going to be playing 1st base for the White Sox next year. It could happen, but because of so many different factors, the odds are really low of that happening.

2nd assumption: Abreu is now on or is about to begin on some sort of speedy downward slope of his abilities, both hitting and fielding, that he's about to suddenly be too old to be any good. I understand that he's over 30, but he far from old. And he's having the best year of his career right now, this year. There is no indication that his skills are failing. I realize that Father Time always wins, but he's not winning so far with Abreu . . . games yesterday and pretty much this entire year show this.

Keep Abreu, pay enough to keep him happy (don't insult him with a low-ball offer of forcing him out of playing 1st base) and let's keep him doing what he did yesterday, both games, let's keep him doing that for a few more years. You guys were willing to give a total dick like Machado over 30 million a year for 10 years, but now you're wanting to nickel and dime a loyal soldier who has been here for the worst of the rebuild? Come on; it makes no sense.

Well stated.  You make some good points.

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What people were willing to pay Machado has nothing to do with Abreu.  Machado is worth a hell of a lot more than Abreu.  Terrible logic.

I actually would like to see the Sox bring him back but probably for no more than two years.  How exciting would it be going into the offseason and only needing to fill one position (RF) in the lineup?

2B  Madrigal

CF  Robert

3B  Moncada

DH  Abreu

LF  Eloy

1B  Vaughn

SS  Anderson

C  McCann

RF  ???

Edited by Moan4Yoan
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5 minutes ago, ron883 said:

I wonder what spurred his comments. Maybe he's been wanting the extension but Sox brass hasn't offered what he wants?

Good question. The Sox are very closed mouthed when it comes to these things. Who knows if they even offered anything at least yet?

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55 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Good question. The Sox are very closed mouthed when it comes to these things. Who knows if they even offered anything at least yet?

Yeah, I didn't see him in any interviews say that stuff.  I wonder what the question was

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18 hours ago, ron883 said:

Jose refuses to DH full time

If we do have to trade him cause of rebuild-happy fans' demands, trade him to a team that will let him play in the field if that's what he wants. I don't blame him. DH is for fat guys or at least lazy guys. Abreu is no ballerina at first but I've seen worst first basemen. His weakness is he blows when he has to dart to both his left and right. I'd give him a C and could accept a grade of C- or B-plus for his defense at first but he's better than a D IMO.

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8 hours ago, soxfan2014 said:

After the game yesterday, he said he really wants be here with these guys going forward. I go year to year with him and offer 1 year $8 million to DH next year.

Give him the going rate for 33 year old guys who are productive but not among the top 15 hitters in the game. In other words, give him a lot more than 8 mill. I'd sign him 3 years for 36 million (it's Jerry's money folks) or 40 million. If it were the NBA I'd give him two years 26 million with a team option for year three. Baseball doesn't do that team option thing, right?

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2 hours ago, SI1020 said:

I'll bet I've done more research than 90% of hard core baseball fans and I absolutely HATE sabermetrics. I guess I'm still an ape. Now as to the poster who mentioned RBIs. When we compute say a batting average we have a number that corresponds to 1.000 which would be a hit in every official at bat. Every time a batter comes up he has the potential to have at least one rbi. Figure out his rbi percentage like we do his BA and you'll more than likely see that those guys with hi rbi totals have them for a very good reason. They are productive with men on base. My biggest gripe with sabermetrics aside from the snide arrogance of its devotees is that the thumb is on the scale on all of their most hallowed stats. Not only that but these stats are continually revised as this or that formula is "tweaked." Kind of like Winston Smith and his job in the records department of the Ministry of Truth. Did you know that WAR has been recalculated numerous times? Baseball-Reference twice had massive readjustments in their Pitching and Fielding WAR stats. The way the all time rankings shifted was breathtaking and ridiculous at the same time. When I called them on it, asked for an explanation in detail they pretty much told me I was an idiot and go run along and play. 

Now as to the subject at hand. I will never understand the vitriol so many Sox fans have had for Jose Abreu. He is the most productive hitter on the team since Frank Thomas. HIs BA has been down a bit this year but he has always been streaky and he's a hot streak or two away from approaching .300 at the plate. His defense is suspect but I like the way he scoops, and that is very important for me when it comes to a first baseman. Tim Anderson in particular owes him a bunch of steak dinners or arroz con pollo if Jose prefers something like that. He deserves his spot on the AL all star team.  

I know this post will sink my already low rating down even further. I've been in love with data, stats of all kind since I was 6 and 1/2 years old and to me saying sabermetrics/analytics whatever is highly flawed is the understatement of the year. At least they still count wins and losses the old fashioned way. I wonder how long that will even last in today's bizarro world. 

 

I worship this poster! Fantastic post SI1020!

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1 hour ago, Moan4Yoan said:

What people were willing to pay Machado has nothing to do with Abreu.  Machado is worth a hell of a lot more than Abreu.  Terrible logic.

I actually would like to see the Sox bring him back but probably for no more than two years.  How exciting would it be going into the offseason and only needing to fill one position (RF) in the lineup?

2B  Madrigal

CF  Robert

3B  Moncada

DH  Abreu

LF  Eloy

1B  Vaughn

SS  Anderson

C  McCann

RF  ???

 

Machado is batting .272, has 20 home runs, 57 RBIs, and an OPS of 852 

Abreu is batting  .271, has 20 home runs, 63 RBIS, and an OPS of 822. 

Explain my "terrible logic" that says it stupid to want to pay Machado 30 million a year, but it's okay to nickel and dime Abreu and try to get him for around 10 million a year. Yeah, you're right my logic is terrible. 

And I say this again: Do you really think that Madrigal, Robert, and Vaughn are all going to be playing for the White Sox next year?  All three, next year??

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5 hours ago, vilehoopster said:

People trying to force Abreu into only DHing or not paying him what he wants are arguing two BIG assumptions as if they were total facts. And they're not facts and really very questionable.

1st assumption: Vaughn is gonna be great and he's gonna be here next year. There's a lot of doubt to both parts of this assumption. I think he's gonna be really good, but we can't assume that like it's a fact. Do I need to bring up some other Sox 1st round draft results? Jake Burger, Burdi, Carson Fulmer; anyone seen Keon Barnum lately? Now, I don't think Vaugh is gonna be a bust; but it's totally unrealistic to think he's going to be playing 1st base for the White Sox next year. It could happen, but because of so many different factors, the odds are really low of that happening.

2nd assumption: Abreu is now on or is about to begin on some sort of speedy downward slope of his abilities, both hitting and fielding, that he's about to suddenly be too old to be any good. I understand that he's over 30, but he far from old. And he's having the best year of his career right now, this year. There is no indication that his skills are failing. I realize that Father Time always wins, but he's not winning so far with Abreu . . . games yesterday and pretty much this entire year show this.

Keep Abreu, pay enough to keep him happy (don't insult him with a low-ball offer of forcing him out of playing 1st base) and let's keep him doing what he did yesterday, both games, let's keep him doing that for a few more years. You guys were willing to give a total dick like Machado over 30 million a year for 10 years, but now you're wanting to nickel and dime a loyal soldier who has been here for the worst of the rebuild? Come on; it makes no sense.

Man, you are a great poster. I endorse this post completely! Your second to last sentence is my biggest beef with "many" message board fans. I suspect if you are in the stands at a game at The Cell, you'd find 24,000 fans very very pleased with Abreu and wanting to keep him and pay him some dough. On here? Not so much. This sentence of yours belongs in the message board hall of fame. You wrote: "You guys were willing to give a total dick like Machado over 30 million a year for 10 years, but now you're wanting to nickel and dime a loyal soldier who has been here for the worst of the rebuild?" Lovely sentence! I suspect not many posters are sentimental enough about a loyal soldier like Abreu to agree with you, but I do!

Edited by greg775

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1 hour ago, Moan4Yoan said:

What people were willing to pay Machado has nothing to do with Abreu.  Machado is worth a hell of a lot more than Abreu.  Terrible logic.

I actually would like to see the Sox bring him back but probably for no more than two years.  How exciting would it be going into the offseason and only needing to fill one position (RF) in the lineup?

2B  Madrigal

CF  Robert

3B  Moncada

DH  Abreu

LF  Eloy

1B  Vaughn

SS  Anderson

C  McCann

RF  ???

Vaughn in 2020 already?

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20 minutes ago, vilehoopster said:

 

Machado is batting .272, has 20 home runs, 57 RBIs, and an OPS of 852 

Abreu is batting  .271, has 20 home runs, 63 RBIS, and an OPS of 822. 

Explain my "terrible logic" that says it stupid to want to pay Machado 30 million a year, but it's okay to nickel and dime Abreu and try to get him for around 10 million a year. Yeah, you're right my logic is terrible. 

And I say this again: Do you really think that Madrigal, Robert, and Vaughn are all going to be playing for the White Sox next year?  All three, next year??

Machado has a higher OPS, can play SS and 3B, and is 6 years younger.  Abreu has negative defensive value at 1B.  It’s quite obvious who is worth $30 million and who isn’t.  Do you not realize that playing a key defensive position like 3B or SS as opposed to being a turnstile at 1B has a lot of value?

I was just listing my projected lineup for the near future but I do think both Madrigal and Robert should be starting next year once the Kris Bryant deadline is over a few weeks into the season.  Vaughn will take longer and will likely not see the 2020 team.  But a one year DH should be easy to fill until Vaughn is ready to take over 1B and move Abreu to full-time DH.

Edited by Moan4Yoan
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3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Over a 13 year period Paul Konerko put up an .866 OPS. Jose Abreu has put up an .865 OPS over 6 seasons. 

I kinda understand the vitriol for Abreu. It's people getting tired of statements like yours and constantly having to turn them around. He's a good but not great hitter. I have no problem keeping him around for another year or two. But that doesn't mean you have to oversell him, and it's not an insult to Abreu point out that you just ignored what Paul Konerko did over 13 years.

Actually Konerko is my all time favorite Sox 1bman. I even defended his defense a time or two. Not so great range but he could really scoop them. You might also want to note that Konerko earned only 27.7 WAR points over the course of a very productive career. I'm not putting Abreu on a pedestal. He's played on some of the lousiest White Sox teams ever and done well in spite of it. I just don't understand the desire to flip anyone with a modicum of talent for "prospects" who as we all see fail more often than not. Lastly, I also remember Konerko being savaged on Sox message boards, and not just in his early struggling years. I liked Konerko a lot. I like Abreu now. What's the problem?   

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" Do you not realize that playing a key defensive position like 3B or SS as opposed to being a turnstile at 1B has a lot of value?"

I do understand you point and agree with you. But does Machado have 3 times the value or even twice the value of Abreu? I don't start to see that at all. Plus there is that dick factor. Machado stomps 1st basemen's feet and rolls bats where catchers will step on them, where as Abreau is a great clubhouse guy, loved and admired by the younger players. That sort of thing has to have value, financial value. 

When we sit back and wonder how the Sox are doing what they're doing with their terrible starting rotation problems, all the injuries, and the youth, you have to realize that there's something there that makes the players believe and keeping fighting with all the comeback victories (the Boston game, who hit that home run; last night's game, who won it) who has the players believing they can win now. Of course, it's not all Abreu, but universally, the players say it starts with Abreu. That has value, value that should be repaid with loyalty and, yes, financial compensation. Sign the guy and for more than a year, and pay him what he deserves. 

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2 hours ago, greg775 said:

Give him the going rate for 33 year old guys who are productive but not among the top 15 hitters in the game. In other words, give him a lot more than 8 mill. I'd sign him 3 years for 36 million (it's Jerry's money folks) or 40 million. If it were the NBA I'd give him two years 26 million with a team option for year three. Baseball doesn't do that team option thing, right?

Lol...you pretend to be a baseball fan and just asked if they do that “team option thing”.

Edited by Chicago White Sox
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2 hours ago, vilehoopster said:

 

Machado is batting .272, has 20 home runs, 57 RBIs, and an OPS of 852 

Abreu is batting  .271, has 20 home runs, 63 RBIS, and an OPS of 822. 

Explain my "terrible logic" that says it stupid to want to pay Machado 30 million a year, but it's okay to nickel and dime Abreu and try to get him for around 10 million a year. Yeah, you're right my logic is terrible. 

And I say this again: Do you really think that Madrigal, Robert, and Vaughn are all going to be playing for the White Sox next year?  All three, next year??

Outside of injury, I’d say it’s 90% likely Madrigal & Robert play for the Sox next year and probably 50/50 on Vaughn.

And yes, trying to justify paying a 32 year old, poor defensive 1B who plays in an incredibly batter friendly ballpark more money by comparing his offensive numbers to that of a 26 year, plus defensive 3B who plays in a very batter unfriendly ballpark is poor logic.

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2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Lol...you pretend to be a baseball fan and just asked if they do that “team option thing”.

 

On 12/21/2015 at 4:46 PM, greg775 said:

I'm guessing 15 million for four years would get it done for Gordon if there really isn't much of a market. If this guy can get five years, his agent is the best in the history of the world. He's too old for a five year deal.

I bet the Royals don't go higher than 15. I bet Sox at 16 mill a year for four years with team option would get it done.

 

On 12/16/2015 at 2:02 PM, greg775 said:

Please sign Lexi now for one year and an option.

 

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6 hours ago, vilehoopster said:

 

Machado is batting .272, has 20 home runs, 57 RBIs, and an OPS of 852 

Abreu is batting  .271, has 20 home runs, 63 RBIS, and an OPS of 822. 

Explain my "terrible logic" that says it stupid to want to pay Machado 30 million a year, but it's okay to nickel and dime Abreu and try to get him for around 10 million a year. Yeah, you're right my logic is terrible. 

And I say this again: Do you really think that Madrigal, Robert, and Vaughn are all going to be playing for the White Sox next year?  All three, next year??

This is why we can't take the Abreu dissenters seriously. Your first two sentences says it all. Almost identical seasons. This is why these advanced stat lovers and Abreu dislikers slay me. You can't talk logic into people who have their minds made up. Abreu is old. Abreu is old news, blah, so bad defensively. We can't change their minds so I can do is praise vilehoopster for his great posts and say, "Vile, you are the poster of the year!"

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4 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

And yes, trying to justify paying a 32 year old, poor defensive 1B who plays in an incredibly batter friendly ballpark more money by comparing his offensive numbers to that of a 26 year, plus defensive 3B who plays in a very batter unfriendly ballpark is poor logic.

For you to not tip your cap to Jose for his having an almost identical season as the great Machado is really sad. Just tell us you dislike Jose and won't ever change your mind. We will understand.

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4 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Lol...you pretend to be a baseball fan and just asked if they do that “team option thing”.

Sorry I'm human. I never pretended to know everything. I have my opinions on individual players and the rebuild/tank job like everybody else. So excuuuuuuuussssssseeeee meeeee.

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4 hours ago, greg775 said:

Sorry I'm human. I never pretended to know everything. I have my opinions on individual players and the rebuild/tank job like everybody else. So excuuuuuuuussssssseeeee meeeee.

 

5 hours ago, ron883 said:

 

 

 

Quit the act Greg...

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4 hours ago, greg775 said:

For you to not tip your cap to Jose for his having an almost identical season as the great Machado is really sad. Just tell us you dislike Jose and won't ever change your mind. We will understand.

I’m so sick of this “TWTW” / anti “statnik” charade you put on.  Me being objective about Jose’s value has nothing to do with me liking him or not.  I said I’d bring him back on a two year deal in this very thread.  I rock an authentic Jose Abreu jersey to all the games I go to.  I think his value to clubhouse is tremendous.  I’m a huge Jose fan at the end of the day.

All that being said, comparing his offensive numbers to Machado to try to justify paying him more is without question poor logic.  Positions matter and a good 1B should hit better than a 3B all else being equal.  Ballparks matter and the Grate is a much more friendly stadium than Petco.  And when it comes to handing out contracts, age matters because you are paying for future production.  When combined, all these factors make Manny Machado a terrible comp for what Jose Abreu should get if extended.

If you want to make a case for paying Jose more, you guys should be citing someone like Carlos Santana who got 3/$60M coming off a 115 wRC+ season as a 31 year old.  However, that would require critical thinking and you & Vile would rather just be emotional and compare him to the young, “dick” 3B.

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