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Luis Robert kills it in his first game in AAA

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10 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Deliberately tanking has really hurt attendance in a number of markets, especially the smaller/mid-sized ones.  There’s no argument about that.

As Greg knows, the Royals got four and one half years of excitement out of what amounts to30 years of tanking...and are close to back to being in the same position they were in 15 years ago.  Maybe that’s part of the fear, and the prism from which he sees the Sox...and it’s a perfectly legitimate one due to our front offices’ paltry record with free agent signings.

A White Sox team that we have to hope will up the payrolls back to the $150-160 million range simply has no other way to compete with Boston, NYY, Houston and now Minnesota.  And no team can successfully BUILD simply through free agency.  There has to be that young, cost-controlled core OR unlimited financial resources.

 

That said, if Colome is traded for another Tilson/Cordell type...instead of at least Avi Garcia/Top 75ish milb potential...and the bullpen continues to be erratic at best in 2020, Greg will be at least partially right.

 

 

Unfortunately, time really flies and never stands still (as in 2005 lasting forever). I was thinking about that as I was driving in the car. In living here, I can tell you there was a ton of excitement here for those 4 1/2 years of Royals excellence but alas time does not stand still and the Royals again are unpopular and it's all Chiefs all the time. Unlike Sox fans, Royals fans never talk about flipping their rare good players (Whit, Soler) and talk of tank/rebuild is really not on the fans' minds. They just lose all interest. I think it's kind of a shame that the Royals are destined to suck the next 8 years or so in the hopes of again acquiring enough talent in the draft to make a run or two in the postseason.

I like the old way of the Sox always being good even though they ultimately would fall short the last six weeks of most all seasons. I guess it's worth it to Royals fans as they wanted a WS title in their lifetimes and got one, but it seems weird to me you have to wait 8-10 years of your life for your team to get competitive again.

I'm serious though. If Soler was a White Sox with his 25 homers we'd be talking incessantly about flipping him. And oh boy we'd want to flip Whit.

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10 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Deliberately tanking has really hurt attendance in a number of markets, especially the smaller/mid-sized ones.  There’s no argument about that.

Unfortunately (for anti tankers like me) attendance doesn't matter to owners anymore. They only care about TV revenue and MLB revenue accorded to all teams.

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10 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Deliberately tanking has really hurt attendance in a number of markets, especially the smaller/mid-sized ones.  There’s no argument about that.

In most markets, there is no difference between being mediocre and being horrible.  Attendance is all about winning.  However, to win in the current game is to build the organization from the ground up.  Tanking is one way to do it.

21 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Unfortunately (for anti tankers like me) attendance doesn't matter to owners anymore. They only care about TV revenue and MLB revenue accorded to all teams.

There is no justifying being "anti-tank" in this league as built.  

Edited by Eloy Jiménez
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23 minutes ago, Eloy Jiménez said:

In most markets, there is no difference between being mediocre and being horrible.  Attendance is all about winning.  However, to win in the current game is to build the organization from the ground up.  Tanking is one way to do it.

There is no justifying being "anti-tank" in this league as built.  

Wrong - AGAIN!  

“Tanking”, as it’s too commonly referred to these days, on boards such as this one, refers to complete anti-ethical behavior on behalf of the Major League team.  Every MLB team is responsible for fielding a team each and every day capable of winning that day’s game to the best of that organization’s ability.  

Anything less is a compromise of that team’s ethical approach to the game.  And that is agnostic to any market.  

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2 hours ago, Eloy Jiménez said:

In most markets, there is no difference between being mediocre and being horrible.  Attendance is all about winning.  However, to win in the current game is to build the organization from the ground up.  Tanking is one way to do it.

There is no justifying being "anti-tank" in this league as built.  

Sure there is. Some fans still believe in winning above everything. I'd rather win meaningless games in September even if a better draft pick is at stake. It's easy to justify my position. I want my team to win any and every game it plays. Case closed.

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49 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Sure there is. Some fans still believe in winning above everything. I'd rather win meaningless games in September even if a better draft pick is at stake. It's easy to justify my position. I want my team to win any and every game it plays. Case closed.

Humor me.  If the Sox needed to lose game 162 in order to draft #1 in a year an Alex Rodriguez level talent was available at 1 would you do it?  This is the rest of the 1st round to give you an idea of the idealized scenario I'm envisioning.  It was mostly A-Rod and a bunch of busts.

If you say no I'm not sure you're a rational fan.  Games are just battles.  Seasons (plural) are the war.  Sometimes you make strategic retreats.  That's what tanking is.

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10 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Humor me.  If the Sox needed to lose game 162 in order to draft #1 in a year an Alex Rodriguez level talent was available at 1 would you do it?  This is the rest of the 1st round to give you an idea of the idealized scenario I'm envisioning.  It was mostly A-Rod and a bunch of busts.

If you say no I'm not sure you're a rational fan.  Games are just battles.  Seasons (plural) are the war.  Sometimes you make strategic retreats.  That's what tanking is.

That’s fine...because we keep hearing we were just one pick away from Benintendi, one away from Jo Adell or that Beck kid from NC...but there always seems to be an excuse.  Or Buehler vs. Fulmer, Collins would have gone 1-1 if we were drafting, etc.

Sure, we can go back and say Aiken/Kolek/Rodon/Schwarber have all been disappointments (or look at Gordon Beckham’s class), the draft’s a crapshoot some years even in the first five picks, but it’s just highly ironic that the scout responsible for honing in on Trout still got fired by the Angels while all we have for comfort are rationalizations and a string of injuries.

Now the White Sox are pretty much stuck in a position where it’s almost impossible for them to get another Top Five pick.

Which means they have no choice but to get it right in free agency to fix the RF problem, starting rotation and especially the bullpen. 

 

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6 hours ago, Fan O'Faust said:

Wrong - AGAIN!  

“Tanking”, as it’s too commonly referred to these days, on boards such as this one, refers to complete anti-ethical behavior on behalf of the Major League team.  Every MLB team is responsible for fielding a team each and every day capable of winning that day’s game to the best of that organization’s ability.  

Anything less is a compromise of that team’s ethical approach to the game.  And that is agnostic to any market.  

 You're really diving into the semantics here and convoluting the argument. 

 Call it rebuilding, tanking, etc... whatever you want. No one is talking about fielding a team with the idea of losing on any given day. The team fields the best team it can, with the players it has available.  

 People here are talking about rebuilding an organization from the ground up. NOT losing baseball games on purpose. Is that really worth pointing out? 

 

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5 hours ago, greg775 said:

Sure there is. Some fans still believe in winning above everything. I'd rather win meaningless games in September even if a better draft pick is at stake. It's easy to justify my position. I want my team to win any and every game it plays. Case closed.

All fans believe in winning above everything. Including those in favor of "tanking" or "building"... whatever we want to call it. That's the point of being a fan... you want to win. 

I would personally rather pickup a young player who could help us try to win a world series each of the next 4-5 seasons. As opposed to keep a veteran who could help us beat Detroit in September this year. But hey... that's just me being "flip happy". 

Wanting to win a world series in 2020 or 2021 instead of wanting to beat the Royals in September IS a belief in "winning above everything". I would say it's actually a much stronger belief and requires that much more dedication to winning. 

You want to win a bunch of meaningless, small battles which will be forgotten weeks after they are played out. I want to win multiple wars that will be remembered for eternity. 

 

 

Edited by Richie
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3 hours ago, Richie said:

All fans believe in winning above everything. Including those in favor of "tanking" or "building"... whatever we want to call it. That's the point of being a fan... you want to win. 

I would personally rather pickup a young player who could help us try to win a world series each of the next 4-5 seasons. As opposed to keep a veteran who could help us beat Detroit in September this year. But hey... that's just me being "flip happy". 

Wanting to win a world series in 2020 or 2021 instead of wanting to beat the Royals in September IS a belief in "winning above everything". I would say it's actually a much stronger belief and requires that much more dedication to winning. 

You want to win a bunch of meaningless, small battles which will be forgotten weeks after they are played out. I want to win multiple wars that will be remembered for eternity. 

 

 

THIS!

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Except this hasn’t exactly worked out well for the 76ers now, has it?

In order to be remembered for eternity, you need sustained success...And to have that sustained success, you’re going to need payrolls in the $160-180 million range, if not higher.   

We will all believe it when we see it.

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5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Except this hasn’t exactly worked out well for the 76ers now, has it?

In order to be remembered for eternity, you need sustained success...And to have that sustained success, you’re going to need payrolls in the $160-180 million range, if not higher.   

We will all believe it when we see it.

I'm expecting the 2020 White Sox payroll to be lower than the 2019 team payroll.

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15 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Except this hasn’t exactly worked out well for the 76ers now, has it?

In order to be remembered for eternity, you need sustained success...And to have that sustained success, you’re going to need payrolls in the $160-180 million range, if not higher.   

We will all believe it when we see it.

76ers are not an MLB franchise and are not relevant to this discussion 

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8 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

I'm expecting the 2020 White Sox payroll to be lower than the 2019 team payroll.

Unless they sign Ozuna/Castellanos/Puig, two VERY GOOD free agent starters not named Cole...and at least one if not two veteran relievers.

Then you have to think about McCann’s long-term future and add that into the equation.

(OTOH, parting with Abreu cuts off another big salary bite.)

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8 hours ago, Eloy Jiménez said:

Richie just took @Fan O'Faust and Greg to the cleaners. 

He basically just deregistered their accounts

You’d be better served cleaning up your own account

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