The Bulls biggest problem: John Paxson and Gar Forman

[Quin]

Excuse me, I forgot to mention re-signing 35 year old Mike Dunleavy was a bad idea as well.

 

Explain why. Because his resigning had literally 0 effect on the cap and ability to sign other people.

[ozzfest]

Explain why. Because his resigning had literally 0 effect on the cap and ability to sign other people.

Explain to me why 35 year old Mike Dunleavy is a good starting small forward in the NBA? Especially on a team we were told was a championship contender.

[southsider2k5]

Excuse me, I forgot to mention re-signing 35 year old Mike Dunleavy was a bad idea as well.

 

In the modern NBA it is pretty terrible to have a SF who can shoot the three and move the ball.

[ozzfest]

In the modern NBA it is pretty terrible to have a SF who can shoot the three and move the ball.

They signed him to a 3 year extension the day before he announced he was having surgery. They agreed to the contract knowing he would miss significant time. THEREFORE, they were CONTENT having Tony Snell being a regular rotational player filling in. A terrible plan.

[southsider2k5]

They signed him to a 3 year extension the day before he announced he was having surgery. They agreed to the contract knowing he would miss significant time. THEREFORE, they were CONTENT having Tony Snell being a regular rotational player filling in. A terrible plan.

 

This is just idiotic. There was no projection that had him out over half of the season. They though MAYBE a few weeks into the season. He rehurt it during rehab, so no, they didn't expect this. No wonder you are so angry, you have no grasp on reality.

[ozzfest]

One single conference finals game win in 17 years is the reality of the Bulls. They haven't even come close to an NBA finals appearance. They strike out on every major FA. Are the least creative FO in the league. And their drafting as of late has been pretty sub-par.

 

The only difference between the NBA and the MLB is that being B+ gets you into the playoffs in the NBA. In the MLB it is much more difficult to make the playoffs. So to use consecutive playoff appearances in the NBA as a measuring stick of success is just wrong. It is not that hard to make the playoffs in the NBA. Half of the league makes the playoffs. While one third of the league is tanking.

Edited January 24, 2016 by ozzfest

[Balta1701]

I think a short summation of my view of this thread is

 

1. It's entirely possible the Bulls FO has made some mistakes. They've had some clear major hits and some solid misses. However...

 

2. Given what happened to the MVP they drafted, I submit that there are zero GM/coach/management combos who could have turned this team into a championship team in the last 5 years. Make every decision correct...and that injury ravaged player still prevents them from being a title team.

[ozzfest]

I think a short summation of my view of this thread is

 

1. It's entirely possible the Bulls FO has made some mistakes. They've had some clear major hits and some solid misses. However...

 

2. Given what happened to the MVP they drafted, I submit that there are zero GM/coach/management combos who could have turned this team into a championship team in the last 5 years. Make every decision correct...and that injury ravaged player still prevents them from being a title team.

 

1. Derrick Rose is healthy (enough) this year

2. The team is not even close to being a contender.

3. The FO said that this roster was a championship roster with Thibs standing in the way.

4. So what gives?

[southsider2k5]

I think a short summation of my view of this thread is

 

1. It's entirely possible the Bulls FO has made some mistakes. They've had some clear major hits and some solid misses. However...

 

2. Given what happened to the MVP they drafted, I submit that there are zero GM/coach/management combos who could have turned this team into a championship team in the last 5 years. Make every decision correct...and that injury ravaged player still prevents them from being a title team.

 

This is probably the most fair post in this entire thread. When your franchise player and cornerstone goes down to three major injuries, and isn't himself anymore, your entire franchise changes.

[Balta1701]

1. Derrick Rose is healthy (enough) this year

2. The team is not even close to being a contender.

3. The FO said that this roster was a championship roster with Thibs standing in the way.

4. So what gives?

Derrick Rose is no where near the player he was pre-injury nor is he the player he's being paid to be. He currently has the 9th highest salary in the NBA. Is he a top 10 player right now?

[ozzfest]

Derrick Rose is no where near the player he was pre-injury nor is he the player he's being paid to be. He currently has the 9th highest salary in the NBA. Is he a top 10 player right now?

So why did GarPax tell us this was a championship roster? And if they have no shot at winning...why aren't they rebuilding?

[Dick Allen]

So why did GarPax tell us this was a championship roster? And if they have no shot at winning...why aren't they rebuilding?

This is where I agree with you. We were led to believe this was a championship caliber roster only the ogre coach was holding them back. They had to humiliate him, but still pay him $9 million to go away. Now it's wait, this isn't a championship team, we have had a lot of bad luck?

[Balta1701]

So why did GarPax tell us this was a championship roster? And if they have no shot at winning...why aren't they rebuilding?

1. At what point did you know that Derrick Rose wasn't going to be Derrick Rose any more? If he was still Derrick Rose, with the way Gasol is playing, Butler turning into a top 20 player, and a strong lineup around them, this would be a championship roster.

 

2. What can you do to rebuild when you're holding one of the worst contracts in the league, top 10 money for a player who can't get there?

 

3. Unfortunately we found a top 20 player late in the draft and that also made any "Rebuilding" effort extremely difficult because right there, even without Derrick Rose, the Bulls were going to have to rely on the guys they could find later in the draft.

 

The only thing that is a legit mistake is the thing the Bulls couldn't do - Trade away Rose after that first Bulls/Heat series. If they'd done that, then youv'e got a legit rebuilding path. If you didn't do that, then you don't have cap space, you are continuing to try to put a lineup on the court that can compete around Rose if he comes back healthy, and you're consequently not getting high draft picks.

[Panerista]

It's clueless fans like yourself that support Kenny Williams running the White Sox for as long as he has. You don't know something will get better until you change it. The Bulls need to change their FO. The White Sox need to get rid of Kenny. Both teams need to tank and rebuild. Going halfway is a really sh*** plan.

 

In regards to my plan: it would not involve Tony Snell starting on my team.

I'm going to write this off as you being not very observant, but I am arguably the most vocal proponent of blowing up the White Sox organization top to bottom in order to create a champion from scratch.

 

Also, the White Sox and their situation have next to nothing to do with where the Bulls are. Basketball and baseball are not the same sport, it turns out.

Edited January 25, 2016 by AustinIllini

[Dick Allen]

1. At what point did you know that Derrick Rose wasn't going to be Derrick Rose any more? If he was still Derrick Rose, with the way Gasol is playing, Butler turning into a top 20 player, and a strong lineup around them, this would be a championship roster.

 

2. What can you do to rebuild when you're holding one of the worst contracts in the league, top 10 money for a player who can't get there?

 

3. Unfortunately we found a top 20 player late in the draft and that also made any "Rebuilding" effort extremely difficult because right there, even without Derrick Rose, the Bulls were going to have to rely on the guys they could find later in the draft.

 

The only thing that is a legit mistake is the thing the Bulls couldn't do - Trade away Rose after that first Bulls/Heat series. If they'd done that, then youv'e got a legit rebuilding path. If you didn't do that, then you don't have cap space, you are continuing to try to put a lineup on the court that can compete around Rose if he comes back healthy, and you're consequently not getting high draft picks.

If one really wants to nitpick and use hindsight, even if he had stayed healthy, Derrick Rose may not have been the best point guard in his draft class..

[Quin]

If one really wants to nitpick and use hindsight, even if he had stayed healthy, Derrick Rose may not have been the best point guard in his draft class..

 

I still think he would have. Russ is great, but MVP Rose and the following season was going 25 and 8 with little offensive help or foul calls and was elite defensively. And while Russ has those thunderous dunks, Derrick was the best layup artist ever.

 

Knee injuries robbed Derrick of a Hall of Fame career.

[ozzfest]

[Chisoxfn]

Is this you?

[ozzfest]

Is this you?

No. Haha. But this guy shows some promise as a sportstalk personality.

[ozzfest]

Man, you need a new hobby

lol, says the guy who has 24,000 posts on a white sox message board...

[thxfrthmmrs]

So why did GarPax tell us this was a championship roster? And if they have no shot at winning...why aren't they rebuilding?

 

That's why you play the games. On paper, they WERE a championship contender. Many people, including this board, thought Hoiberg was the coach they needed to solve their biggest problem, offense. Hoiberg was one of the most promising coaches in college basketball, he certainly was an ideal fit for this team. Furthermore, if Rose continued his development post injury, Nikola took the next step of being rising star in this league, and Noah could come anywhere near his DPOY form only TWO years ago, yea we would be on top of the East right now. Those "ifs" all looked pretty likely at the start of the season, and the fact that they didn't happen were out of GarPax's control. And for the record, many experts picked the Bulls to finish with the best record in the East during preseason. It's certainly easy for the butthurt fans to point blame on others when hindsight is 20/20.

 

 

 

Skipped around the video a bit, and stopped listening after 4:47, this guy couldn't even get his facts right.

[Dick Allen]

That's why you play the games. On paper, they WERE a championship contender. Many people, including this board, thought Hoiberg was the coach they needed to solve their biggest problem, offense. Hoiberg was one of the most promising coaches in college basketball, he certainly was an ideal fit for this team. Furthermore, if Rose continued his development post injury, Nikola took the next step of being rising star in this league, and Noah could come anywhere near his DPOY form only TWO years ago, yea we would be on top of the East right now. Those "ifs" all looked pretty likely at the start of the season, and the fact that they didn't happen were out of GarPax's control. And for the record, many experts picked the Bulls to finish with the best record in the East during preseason. It's certainly easy for the butthurt fans to point blame on others when hindsight is 20/20.

 

 

 

 

Skipped around the video a bit, and stopped listening after 4:47, this guy couldn't even get his facts right.

Rose and Noah regaining form seemed likely? Do you own a medical marijuana card? If Hoiberg was the perfect fit for this roster, A. Why do we have posts defending the Gar/Pax hire saying the roster isn't filled with Hoiberg type players, and B. Why isn't the roster performing like an elite team? Nikola has gone backwards. Makes you really wonder if Thibs was bad for him. Perhaps he was better for him than the Mayor. Everything people critize coaches and managers for, Gar/Pax is just as guilty. They have done some good things, but if the goal is the championship, they have been far too reluctant to take chances rather than play it conservately and ride the top 3 or 4 team in the East for as long as they can. This next offseason will be huge for the Bulls. Noah and Pau probably gone, and Rose a year away. The NBA is different than baseball. The money is locked in. What you can offer is hope for a title. Not many players seemingly have felt GarPax put together a roster where they were the one player from a title run.

[thxfrthmmrs]

Rose and Noah regaining form seemed likely? Do you own a medical marijuana card?

I never said they would regain full form, but they were likely to be better than last year. Seriously, who would have predicted Rose to be worse that he was last year WHEN HEALTHY? Jo went from offensive liability to complete trash on offense before he got hurt this year. Their decline is the reason why we are falling apart. I think everyone predicted them to regain their form somewhat, including the front office.

 

And if If Hoiberg was the perfect fit for this roster, A. Why do we have posts defending the Gar/Pax hire saying the roster isn't filled with Hoiberg type players, and B. Why isn't the roster performing like an elite team?

 

Show me one post before this season that says this roster does not have Hoiberg type player. We thought he'd be an offense mastermind, no one said we didn't have the right players. If Hoiberg felt like he needed a certain type of player to succeed, then he should have said something to the FO (we don't actually know if he did or not). This is as much on him as it is on GarPax.

 

Nikola has gone backwards. Makes you really wonder if Thibs was bad for him. Perhaps he was better for him than the Mayor. Everything people critize coaches and managers for, Gar/Pax is just as guilty.

 

Everyone knew Thibs was a good coach in developing young players. If you feel like GarPax firing of Thibs led to Mirotic's decline, then sure, part of the blame could fall on them.

 

They have done some good things, but if the goal is the championship, they have been far too reluctant to take chances rather than play it conservately and ride the top 3 or 4 team in the East for as long as they can. This next offseason will be huge for the Bulls. Noah and Pau probably gone, and Rose a year away. The NBA is different than baseball. The money is locked in. What you can offer is hope for a title. Not many players seemingly have felt GarPax put together a roster where they were the one player from a title run.

 

I agree, I would like to see some changes as well. I will just say that GarPax is the reason why we aren't the best team in the NBA, but they are certainly not the main reason why we are worse than last year.

 

[Y2Jimmy0]

Jason Goff was kind of indicating this morning that he thinks Gar Forman gets fired at seasons end. They were joking about Hoiberg yelling at Gar, complaining that he could be back in Ames instead of this. Goff then said something like "Hoiberg only has about 30 more games to yell at Gar" then they commented about cozying up to Paxson instead. It was interesting.

[Steve9347]

Jason Goff was kind of indicating this morning that he thinks Gar Forman gets fired at seasons end. They were joking about Hoiberg yelling at Gar, complaining that he could be back in Ames instead of this. Goff then said something like "Hoiberg only has about 30 more games to yell at Gar" then they commented about cozying up to Paxson instead. It was interesting.

Good God, just clean these clowns out of here.