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I'm going to enjoy the White Sox this year

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8 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

Being a Season Ticket holder I received an extensive email yesterday regarding acquiring tickets for the opening homestand and the rules  once you're in the stadium.  You can't bring in any type of bag including a bottle of water.  You have to wear a mask at all times. You will be required to stay within pre-assigned zones, which include designated concession and restroom areas. In other words you can't walk around the park. There are numerous other rules  and i can't help but wonder, how many fans are actually going to go to the first homestand?  I realize adjustments have to be made but it rubs me as if the overall enjoyment of going to the game is being taken away.

I think I'm ok waiting honestly. And with all the stuff I have going on every weekend through mid-June, I may nkt even get the chance to go until summer anyway. 

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Posted (edited)
On 3/6/2021 at 1:25 PM, michelangelosmonkey said:

So last years fail at the end of the year and playoffs was idiot manager and no third starter for playoffs...So management fires the idiot manager and replaces him with hall of fame manager and trades the failed third starter and gets back a top ten pitcher...and both were moronic moves?? I think at this point there was no move except RHs head on a pike that was going to appease you.

 

On 3/6/2021 at 1:42 PM, michelangelosmonkey said:

A million people a year get arrested for drunk driving...you are clearly drunk while posting right now...doesnt make you an alcoholic, an idiot or a monster...just a guy making a bad choice in the moment.  TLR has an amazing record as a manager. Maybe he's forgotten everything he knows...but its not "moronic" to hire him.  

As for your rantings on the pitchers?  Sober up and we can talk.  

Man, this was awesome.

I wonder if this guy still thinks this, or if he still wants to attack me, instead of defending the insanely bad and dumb decision to hire TLR.

Edited by Two-Gun Pete

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Can we not, one month into the season, start the gotcha movement.  Thanks 

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6 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Can we not, one month into the season, start the gotcha movement.  Thanks 

Ordinarily I'm right there with you.

But this thread was a festival of attacking other posters, so I kinda figured this guy earned it. 

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1 minute ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Ordinarily I'm right there with you.

But this thread was a festival of attacking other posters, so I kinda figured this guy earned it. 

Just....let's try and get through May.  We are already at the Elmo fire meme, if we are at basement on fire "this is fine" dog meme by end of may, get the slings out 

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3 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

 

Man, this was awesome.

I wonder if this guy still thinks this, or if he still wants to attack me, instead of defending the insanely bad and dumb decision to hire TLR.

Yes I still think it was not "moronic" to hire him.   As I said often it was not my choice...but it was not unreasonable.  Maybe you are new to baseball Pete...we are a mile into the marathon so a bit premature to take a victory lap.   Honestly I was expecting someone to come pee on my head over my questioning of Musgrove after he pitched a no hitter...and now he's lost three of four decisions, given up 8 runs in his last 8 innings...and averaged 4.5 inning in the last four starts.  Great FIP though.      

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2 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Yes I still think it was not "moronic" to hire him.   As I said often it was not my choice...but it was not unreasonable.  Maybe you are new to baseball Pete...we are a mile into the marathon so a bit premature to take a victory lap.   Honestly I was expecting someone to come pee on my head over my questioning of Musgrove after he pitched a no hitter...and now he's lost three of four decisions, given up 8 runs in his last 8 innings...and averaged 4.5 inning in the last four starts.  Great FIP though.      

It was unreasonable by almost every possible way you could analyze it. Sorry.

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1 hour ago, RagahRagah said:

It was unreasonable by almost every possible way you could analyze it. Sorry.

That's not really a reasoned argument...saying "everything was wrong with it" and then "sorry you are stupid".  Here is the debate...Negatives...he's very old, he's been out of the game a decade, some personal blemishes.   Positives...fluent in Spanish, some personal goodness, he's taken three different franchises to the playoffs, won WS in each league, won a dozen pennants, won more games than anyone born after the Civil War, Hall of Famer.  It's not ridiculous to say...the game may have passed him by...he's REALLY old.  But it's also not "moronic" to say...he has a lifetime of leading men successfully, 76 isn't that old anymore, players across the league seem to love him...and he's got organizational history...who better to take this team of young guys to the playoffs?  Maybe it's right maybe it's wrong but it is not moronic.  As for closing the book on the argument based on a couple of in-game strategic errors is just meatball fandom...I get frustrated too...but come on Soxtalk...If Fernando Tatis Jr with his 10 errors in 20 games, 1/3 K rate and .229 batting average were on this team most here would probably be screaming that we should have traded him for James Shields when we had the chance.           

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

That's not really a reasoned argument...saying "everything was wrong with it" and then "sorry you are stupid".  Here is the debate...Negatives...he's very old, he's been out of the game a decade, some personal blemishes.   Positives...fluent in Spanish, some personal goodness, he's taken three different franchises to the playoffs, won WS in each league, won a dozen pennants, won more games than anyone born after the Civil War, Hall of Famer.  It's not ridiculous to say...the game may have passed him by...he's REALLY old.  But it's also not "moronic" to say...he has a lifetime of leading men successfully, 76 isn't that old anymore, players across the league seem to love him...and he's got organizational history...who better to take this team of young guys to the playoffs?  Maybe it's right maybe it's wrong but it is not moronic.  As for closing the book on the argument based on a couple of in-game strategic errors is just meatball fandom...I get frustrated too...but come on Soxtalk...If Fernando Tatis Jr with his 10 errors in 20 games, 1/3 K rate and .229 batting average were on this team most here would probably be screaming that we should have traded him for James Shields when we had the chance.           

Most of those "positives" are not even relevant and are nowhere near in the realm of equal or outweighting the nagatives and either you have not actually thought about the negatives or are being purposely dishonest. 

1. Very old

2. Been out of the game for a decade

(This is where you end the negatives? LOL)

3. Had a recent DUI (which establishes a pattern and he's fucking 76). Do I really need to delve into bullet points just for this reason why this is bad?

4. Young clubhouse with attitude starting to get noticed, doesn't gel

5. Behind the game (doesn't understand the modern statistical elements, etc.)

6. Was essentially a pity hire and there were much better options available, no argument 

7. Buried the GM by tying his hands and not letting him do his job, making him look weak

8. Potentially allowing a known controlling personality (who is now also on and out of touch) to have power over decisions he probably shouldn't

So many of these cascade and there are at least a few I've brought up before I'm forgetting. 

 

I'm not gonna use the term, "moronic;" I don't believe that is ever a rational thought process. I will say that deductive reasoning absolutely tells you it was a terrible decision. Thinking otherwise is either denial or poor judgement. Asking "who better?" to take a young fiesty club to the playoffs than a 76 year old boomer who is against a lot of things this club exhibits is laughable, and that's putting it nicely. Big lack of awareness there. And what on earth does Tatis has to do with subject?

 

Edited by RagahRagah
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32 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

That's not really a reasoned argument...saying "everything was wrong with it" and then "sorry you are stupid".  Here is the debate...Negatives...he's very old, he's been out of the game a decade, some personal blemishes.   Positives...fluent in Spanish, some personal goodness, he's taken three different franchises to the playoffs, won WS in each league, won a dozen pennants, won more games than anyone born after the Civil War, Hall of Famer.  It's not ridiculous to say...the game may have passed him by...he's REALLY old.  But it's also not "moronic" to say...he has a lifetime of leading men successfully, 76 isn't that old anymore, players across the league seem to love him...and he's got organizational history...who better to take this team of young guys to the playoffs?  Maybe it's right maybe it's wrong but it is not moronic.  As for closing the book on the argument based on a couple of in-game strategic errors is just meatball fandom...I get frustrated too...but come on Soxtalk...If Fernando Tatis Jr with his 10 errors in 20 games, 1/3 K rate and .229 batting average were on this team most here would probably be screaming that we should have traded him for James Shields when we had the chance.           

23 games.

But sure, NOBODY WOULD ARGUE THAT, because we were already arguing how dumb it was simply because Fowler had called out Shields, basically forced him off the team/roster...they were FORTUNATE to get anything back for him at all, but of course JR wanted to save the money versus preserving the talent.

You know, having all that minor league depth and talent actually AVAILABLE to utilize would come in quite handy at times like right now.

By the way, Mookie Betts sucks, has no power and K's too much and Cody Bellinger is injury-prone, lol.  Do you really think Dodgers want to rescind their contracts?????  C'mon.

With any players other than maybe Trout and Acuna (Buxton it's the injuries), you're going to find a lot of warts.

 

Finally, when that stupid trade was made, the White Sox were CLEARLY on the downswing from their 23-10 start.  Nothing was going to prevent it, certainly not a washed-up pitcher who wasn't even a true ace for the Royals in 2014-15 and was helped out a ton by pitching in some of those bigger West Coast parks (other than COL).

 

 

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7 hours ago, RagahRagah said:

Most of those "positives" are not even relevant and are nowhere near in the realm of equal or outweighting the nagatives and either you have not actually thought about the negatives or are being purposely dishonest. 

1. Very old

2. Been out of the game for a decade

(This is where you end the negatives? LOL)

3. Had a recent DUI (which establishes a pattern and he's fucking 76). Do I really need to delve into bullet points just for this reason why this is bad?

4. Young clubhouse with attitude starting to get noticed, doesn't gel

5. Behind the game (doesn't understand the modern statistical elements, etc.)

6. Was essentially a pity hire and there were much better options available, no argument 

7. Buried the GM by tying his hands and not letting him do his job, making him look weak

8. Potentially allowing a known controlling personality (who is now also on and out of touch) to have power over decisions he probably shouldn't

So many of these cascade and there are at least a few I've brought up before I'm forgetting. 

 

I'm not gonna use the term, "moronic;" I don't believe that is ever a rational thought process. I will say that deductive reasoning absolutely tells you it was a terrible decision. Thinking otherwise is either denial or poor judgement. Asking "who better?" to take a young fiesty club to the playoffs than a 76 year old boomer who is against a lot of things this club exhibits is laughable, and that's putting it nicely. Big lack of awareness there. And what on earth does Tatis has to do with subject?

 

It's so nice to see how you can be when you are civil.  You don't use the term "moronic" you just say I have poor judgment, I am laughable and lack awareness.   I brought up Tatis to show the idiocy of drawing conclusions about hall of fame people based on a 23 game sample size.  As for you taking my concise argument against hiring TLR and my concise argument for hiring him and expanding the negatives (without really adding anything) and suggesting somehow there is no validity to the positives without even discussing why a man's actual record is meaningless.  Again, as I have stated often, I did not want TLR...I just can understand why the White Sox would try him.  I was responding to Multiple gun Pete's claim that it was moronic (and his weirdly calling me out to dunk on me as if the case is closed) and I will respond to you describing what moronic means, saying that is what the team was doing without actually using the word.  There is only one strong argument against TLR (the drunk driving think is silly, 1% of drivers every year get DWI's...its personal bad judgment that I'm sure TLR is ashamed of...as I suspect you are ashamed of some of your posts).  The major question is that he is old, the game has passed him by and his managerial genius is gone.  Old is a relative thing.  TLR is at the average life expectancy for a man in 2021.  Casey Stengel was coach of the Yankees at the average life expectancy of a man in 1955 and then went to the WS five of the next six years.  Old does not mean incompetent...ask Behlicheck, ask Saban,  ask Popovich.  Honestly the only moronic position at this point is that the data is in and TLR is a failed manager because of a couple of in-game decisions that didn't work.  Neither you, nor I nor anyone else on this board have any idea what it takes to lead a team to a WS. TLR does and maybe he's old and the game has passed him by or maybe he's sly as a fox and is moving and shaping the team with early lessons that will cost games now but harden the team in the future...or maybe we've lost a couple of our favorite players for the season, we've lost a couple of heart breaking games...we've had a bunch of off days and rain outs and we want to beat up the manager because part of his job is to be the whipping boy.          

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8 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

23 games.

But sure, NOBODY WOULD ARGUE THAT, because we were already arguing how dumb it was simply because Fowler had called out Shields, basically forced him off the team/roster...they were FORTUNATE to get anything back for him at all, but of course JR wanted to save the money versus preserving the talent.

You know, having all that minor league depth and talent actually AVAILABLE to utilize would come in quite handy at times like right now.

By the way, Mookie Betts sucks, has no power and K's too much and Cody Bellinger is injury-prone, lol.  Do you really think Dodgers want to rescind their contracts?????  C'mon.

With any players other than maybe Trout and Acuna (Buxton it's the injuries), you're going to find a lot of warts.

 

Finally, when that stupid trade was made, the White Sox were CLEARLY on the downswing from their 23-10 start.  Nothing was going to prevent it, certainly not a washed-up pitcher who wasn't even a true ace for the Royals in 2014-15 and was helped out a ton by pitching in some of those bigger West Coast parks (other than COL).

 

 

Sorry  I was using an analogy and you clearly missed it. My POINT was that it's only 23 games...it is baseball...we cannot make conclusions based on small sample sizes.  TLR is not a failure because of a couple of heartbreaking losses in April...Tatis is not a failure because of 23 games in April.  Still it would be fair to be a bit nervous as a Padres fan...10 errors in 23 games at SS, -7 DRS in his first 162 games played...if Tatis jr can't play SS and they move him to left field...that $330 million contract isn't so pretty.  If his 197 strikeouts in his first 650 at bats suggest teams are figuring out how to get him out...that $330 million contract isn't so pretty.  if missing long stretches of the season in 2018 (at AA), 2019, 2020 and already this year suggest he's fragile...that $330 million contract isn't so pretty.   

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Sorry  I was using an analogy and you clearly missed it. My POINT was that it's only 23 games...it is baseball...we cannot make conclusions based on small sample sizes.  TLR is not a failure because of a couple of heartbreaking losses in April...Tatis is not a failure because of 23 games in April.  Still it would be fair to be a bit nervous as a Padres fan...10 errors in 23 games at SS, -7 DRS in his first 162 games played...if Tatis jr can't play SS and they move him to left field...that $330 million contract isn't so pretty.  If his 197 strikeouts in his first 650 at bats suggest teams are figuring out how to get him out...that $330 million contract isn't so pretty.  if missing long stretches of the season in 2018 (at AA), 2019, 2020 and already this year suggest he's fragile...that $330 million contract isn't so pretty.   

Yeah, a 6.75-7.0 fWAR at his age is pretty alarming.   Lots of shortstops hit 45-50 homers per season, they practically grow on trees.  He also had a 3.1 defensive rating in 2020 at 6’4” and handles the position much better than ARod or Ripken at similar sizes did.  Btw, what was Kris Bryant’s K rate at the same age....well, he was just finishing NCAA ball.  

Besides, I’ve read this same argument about Tim Anderson nearly every season when he goes through a rough defensive patch, it’s just that starting the season and trying to justify a new contract are things to overcome...and he’s also having to get used to playing with a shoulder harness.

Missed time in 2020 for what, playing in 59/60 games isn’t enough?

In terms of durability, we can pretty much say the exact same thing about Jimenez and Robert, can’t we?

At any rate, they have to find a place for CJ Abrams to play, too.

https://www.mlb.com/news/padres-inbox-cj-abrams-mackenzie-gore-potential-trades

 

 

The comp to Tatis isn’t relevant because you would be comparing TLR at essentially the beginning on his second full season managing...if he did that at ages 20-21.   How old was TLR when he took over the Sox, already mid to late 30’s, with a law degree and life experience?   

Even if you want to make a statistical comparison, is TLR really one of the 10-12 best managers in baseball today?   
 

And what happens if we don’t see any noticeable improvement during the dog days of August, which is hard on even a 35-50 year old manager?  What then?

 

Edited by caulfield12

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If you want to be alarmed, be alarmed about Lindor and Betts underperforming even bigger contracts...with declines in performance on the closer horizon.

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6 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Yeah, a 6.75 fWAR at his age is pretty alarming.   Lots of shortstops hit 45-50 homers per season, they practically grow on trees.  He also had a 3.1 defensive rating in 2020 at 6’4” and handles the position much better than ARod or Ripken at similar sizes did.  Btw, what was Kris Bryant’s K rate at the same age....well, he was just finishing NCAA ball.  

Besides, I’ve read this same argument about Tim Anderson nearly every season when he goes through a rough defensive patch, it’s just that starting the season and trying to justify a new contract are things to overcome...and he’s also having to get used to playing with a shoulder harness.

Missed time in 2020 for what, playing in 59/60 games isn’t enough?

We can pretty much say the exact same thing for Jimenez and Robert, can’t we?

 

The comp to Tatis isn’t relevant because you would be comparing TLR at essentially the beginning on his second full season managing...if he did that at ages 20-21.   How old was TLR when he took over the Sox, already mid to late 30’s, with a law degree and life experience?   

Even if you want to make a statistical comparison, is TLR really one of the 10-12 best managers in baseball today?   
 

And what happens if we don’t see any noticeable improvement during the dog days of August, which is hard on even a 35-50 year old manager?  What then?

 

Wait....I'm confused are you suggesting TLR can't get around on a fastball anymore? Thank god we have age limits on US Presidents because god knows how they would hit the curve in their mid 70's.  So there is no room for confusion by argument is DON'T MAKE CONCLUSIONS BASED ON SMALL SAMPLE SIZES...baseball players, managers, teachers, sales guys.  Lots of randomness.   

As for Tatis...listen you have the stronger argument...Tatis in March was a transcendent talent...an uber god of baseball that we are creating a new wing for in Cooperstown.  He's had a rough April defensively and offensively.  He's had a lot of injuries (and yes we can say the same thing for Robert and Jiminez...we should hold off on the Hall of Fame ceremony for a little while).  He would not be the first baseball player that had an amazing 160 game stretch and fail...he would not be the first Domincan player to use steroids.  He would not be the first guy to start at SS and flame out because he can't field the position.   He's a slightly better hitter at this point than Eloy, one year younger...and given a contract worth $250 million more.  That's what would worry me as a Padre fan.   

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4 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Wait....I'm confused are you suggesting TLR can't get around on a fastball anymore? Thank god we have age limits on US Presidents because god knows how they would hit the curve in their mid 70's.  So there is no room for confusion by argument is DON'T MAKE CONCLUSIONS BASED ON SMALL SAMPLE SIZES...baseball players, managers, teachers, sales guys.  Lots of randomness.   

As for Tatis...listen you have the stronger argument...Tatis in March was a transcendent talent...an uber god of baseball that we are creating a new wing for in Cooperstown.  He's had a rough April defensively and offensively.  He's had a lot of injuries (and yes we can say the same thing for Robert and Jiminez...we should hold off on the Hall of Fame ceremony for a little while).  He would not be the first baseball player that had an amazing 160 game stretch and fail...he would not be the first Domincan player to use steroids.  He would not be the first guy to start at SS and flame out because he can't field the position.   He's a slightly better hitter at this point than Eloy, one year younger...and given a contract worth $250 million more.  That's what would worry me as a Padre fan.   

How many times have you watched him play, just curious...because arguing that he can’t field the position is idiotic.

He tries to make every single play and every single throw that could be halfway close at first because he has one of the three best SS arms in baseball.  He also makes throws from his knees, spinning 360 degrees and falling over backwards to second...he just needs to control his instinct to get every defensive highlight on ESPN.   Forcing things.

As far as PEDs, guess we should lump Vladdy Guerrero, Jr., Soto and Acuna into this and accuse them of all being on steroids, lol.

Tatis doesn’t have the massive melon and huge biceps of those dudes from the late 80’s and 90’s.  Two of those four had baseball in their bloodlines, not unlike Griffey Jr. and Bonds. 

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Caulfield stop talking about tatis 

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12 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

How many times have you watched him play, just curious...because arguing that he can’t field the position is idiotic.

He tries to make every single play and every single throw that could be halfway close at first because he has one of the three best SS arms in baseball.  He also makes throws from his knees, spinning 360 degrees and falling over backwards to second...he just needs to control his instinct to get every defensive highlight on ESPN.   Forcing things.

As far as PEDs, guess we should lump Vladdy Guerrero, Jr., Soto and Acuna into this and accuse them of all being on steroids, lol.

Tatis doesn’t have the massive melon and huge biceps of those dudes from the late 80’s and 90’s.  Two of those four had baseball in their bloodlines, not unlike Griffey Jr. and Bonds. 

Lol the guy leads the world in errors and can't throw to first base with a banged up shoulder and thats not a concern but Mookie Betts has a 767 ops in 25 games after winning a world series and dominating his first year after signing and that's a big concern. 

Caufield cracks me up.

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14 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Yes I still think it was not "moronic" to hire him.   As I said often it was not my choice...but it was not unreasonable.  Maybe you are new to baseball Pete...we are a mile into the marathon so a bit premature to take a victory lap.   Honestly I was expecting someone to come pee on my head over my questioning of Musgrove after he pitched a no hitter...and now he's lost three of four decisions, given up 8 runs in his last 8 innings...and averaged 4.5 inning in the last four starts.  Great FIP though.      

Wait, so you don't know that its bad for a (snicker) "Hall of Fame Baseball Person" to not know the rules of baseball? Maybe you're new to baseball, but its bad for a manager to make bad decisions. Or to leave the struggling #1 SP in the game too long. Or to have the $18MM closer run the bases. Or to not know the rules about challenges. 

We could go on, but there are at least 8 or so games that we could point to where the (snicker) "Hall of Fame Manager" hurt his team's chances to win. And that's in only 29 games. How much worse will it get going forward?

 

But hey, at least you're not accusing others of being as drunk as TLR, so I guess that's progress. Good for you!

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Lol the guy leads the world in errors and can't throw to first base with a banged up shoulder and thats not a concern but Mookie Betts has a 767 ops in 25 games after winning a world series and dominating his first year after signing and that's a big concern. 

Caufield cracks me up.

Ban bet.  fWAR over the remainder of their contracts, Betts vs. Voldemort.  Is it on like Donkey Kong?

And wasn’t there also a time Tim Anderson led the AL in errors at an even more advanced age?  
 

Surely Mookie Betts was dominating MLB at age 21-22, as well?  1.8, 4.8 and then 8.3 as a 23 year old.  Tatis has already outproduced the Betts age 21-22 seasons, so he’s a full year ahead in terms of trajectory.

Tatis would need 26 fWAR for basically 4+ seasons, from ages 24-28.

Edited by caulfield12

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15 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Wait, so you don't know that its bad for a (snicker) "Hall of Fame Baseball Person" to not know the rules of baseball? Maybe you're new to baseball, but its bad for a manager to make bad decisions. Or to leave the struggling #1 SP in the game too long. Or to have the $18MM closer run the bases. Or to not know the rules about challenges. 

We could go on, but there are at least 8 or so games that we could point to where the (snicker) "Hall of Fame Manager" hurt his team's chances to win. And that's in only 29 games. How much worse will it get going forward?

 

But hey, at least you're not accusing others of being as drunk as TLR, so I guess that's progress. Good for you!

Or to extol the virtues of Billy Hamilton singling in a situation calling for a homer or at least a double...

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Am I really reading about a ban bet that goes to the end of two players careers based on fWAR.   

 

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Ban bet.  fWAR over the remainder of their contracts, Betts vs. Voldemort.  Is it on like Donkey Kong?

And wasn’t there also a time Tim Anderson led the AL in errors at an even more advanced age?  
 

Surely Mookie Betts was dominating MLB at age 21-22, as well?  1.8, 4.8 and then 8.3 as a 23 year old.  Tatis has already outproduced the Betts age 21-22 seasons, so he’s a full year ahead in terms of trajectory.

Tatis would need 26 fWAR for basically 4+ seasons, from ages 24-28.

Oh my.

1. Why would I make a ban bet based on two players not on the White Sox production over the next 10 years?

2. You are arguing Mookie Betts is a concern (.7 fWAR) despite a 7 year track record of being one of the best players in the world, but people showing concern over Tatis (.5 fWAR) are dopes and wrong despite Tatis barely playing more than an entire season worth of games in his career. Do you not see the irony in that? And before you argue games played, Betts has played TWO more games and out produced Tatis this year. The year where we should be concerned about Betts.

Oh and Tim Anderson wasn't paid 250 million dollars to be one of the best players in baseball and was known as a raw asset.

Thanks for playing.

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run

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