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QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 05:00 AM) It was there...just happened to be on the bench and in AAA You know what would be even crazier? If he *gasp* didn't f***ing play him. I honestly believe we could have won the division or came within a game or 2 if our lineup was made by a 6 year old who only had BA/HR/RBI to look at after July 15th. Or we could have won the division if the GM didn't bring in overpaid stiffs like Dunn and Rios. And waste so much money on Peavy. KW's one sentence in the media how Ozzie was allowed to bench the zillionaires was MASTERFUL in making KW look good. Totally shifted the blame from KW to Oz. Good job, Kenny. If you believe in reality of sports you understand why Ozzie plays Dunn and Rios.

Amazing how the Tigers are the new Twins. They give us a total beatdown.

Let's please not even bring Ozzie into this just lament the fact we are 11.5 games out. Can you believe this horses*** season? So many optimists on this board and everywhere pointing out that "all we need to do is have one long winning streak." This when we were anywhere between 4 and 6 out for so many weeks. People looking ahead to the next homestand or road trip still having a glimmer of hope we might get hot and/or compete! All false hope. What a joke. Predictably, all hope finally ended in late August, early September. GOD I HATED THIS .500 SEASON!

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 04:40 AM) True, but I look forward to reading them 156,798 times until next April Don't worry ... a month after the season is over the only Sox stories we'll be reading will be the ones about how Dunn is going to bounce back nicely (unless of course, there is a firing of Oz/KW/both). That will be the story of the offseason. His resurgence.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 04:43 AM) Pages 3 and 4 of this thread were certainly interesting. Why?

A rotation of Mark, Humber, Zach, Sale and Floyd probably would be a lot like this year. Some great starts. Some implosions. If Sale somehow is Verlander, however, a true overpowering ace, potentially it could be a good rotation. The risk is Humber and Zack return to suckiness. Then it would be a horrid staff barring utter Sale dominance. Our bullpen is still shaky. I agree on paper it is phenomenal. But the reality is it's shaky.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 04:22 AM) But why will all those types of problems not occur in Miami if Ozzie is the manager? They happen here, I think they can happen anywhere. I guess the same problems could surface immediately in Florida with him in charge. I haven't studied Florida's roster, but I find it hard to believe any team has worse team speed than the White Sox. That is a good point, though. If Florida starts playing dysfunctional baseball like we play next season, I guess it could be more than coincidence and the argument that Ozzie sucks would have more clout to it.

I'll answer your points briefly as possible: You really don't think Ozzie is rude to people, especially/including White Sox fans and season ticket holders? -- From what people have written on here, he's nice in public and I think he signs autographs willingly, etc. I don't think signs are that he is a rude man. I know your defense of him...he's refreshing, "telling it like it is," not cliched or boring, he's taking the pressure off the players by drawing so much attention to himself, etc. -- Yes that is my defense. I truly don't mind his controversial quotes. Sometimes I think they are spot on. But don't you think Ozzie himself believes he is BIGGER than the White Sox, that he's the public face of the team, that he represents (to the outside world) their image of Chicago baseball? Is that really a good thing? -- I don't think he thinks he's bigger than the White Sox (but that's why I said only people on the inside know if he's a prick) but I do agree he thinks he's the public face of the team. Yes he does. Does Ozzie's presence (at this point in his regime) help draw fans to the ballpark? Or does it actually keep a significant number of frustrated fans away? -- No he doesn't draw fans to the park. I seriously doubt he personally keeps many away. Now the team's awful performance has kept many away and he is partly responsible for the performance so yes, he's helped keep thousands away with his team's pathetic play. And what about all of the unprofessional allegations/distractions caused by Oney's official and now underground tweeting and social networking? -- The tweet stuff has never bothered me. It's his kid, not him. The Teahen thing was kind of funny, not life and death. I would truly change my opinion of him if I was told that he is an ASS to fans, reporters, players, stadium workers, batboys, etc. I believe Bevington was described as a total horse's ass. I'm not denying most teams would have fired their manager for what's transpired this year. Very high payroll, very high expectations; totally disgusting team. If he gets fired, I won't say it's unwarranted. I will say I think his best years of managing are ahead of him and why should that be in Florida?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 04:07 AM) Greg, one question, if bringing in Ozzie will make everything wrong with the Marlins right, how come the White Sox aren't great? Well, I personally think we've had a ton of players have bad years. I think our pitching again has been overrated. The starters were excellent for a long time, however. I think the team has had very very bad hitting (not Ozzie's fault really), the team is very very slow on the basepaths (not Ozzie's fault), the team cannot bunt (Ozzie deserves 80 percent of the blame there), some very poor relief performances when it mattered (not Ozzie's fault).

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 04:02 AM) lmao. Really? What kinda ignore feature is that, then? What's the point? I've never ignored anybody. So I didn't know. Milkman hates my posts so he ignores me. There's an ignore button. The Internet world is bizarre. I assume Milk is a very successful person; Whether he believes it or not, I do well enough as well. In real life I have friends and family and all that. It begs the question: If I met Milkman would he punch me? Would he tackle me? Would he run the other way? All because of Internet banter? It would take an awful lot for me to get worked up over anything any of you post on here.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 01:17 AM) Greg, with that response, you should be a speechwriter for Romney. If you were JR, at the end of this season, whether we're in 2nd or 3rd place, do you fire Ozzie Guillen? Or do you look to trade his rights to the Marlins for talent...and, failing that, bring him back to finish his contract without providing an extension beyond the 2012 season (making him a lame duck)? QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 01:21 AM) I don't think he was "trained" by the Sox. Ozzie came in managing a certain way, and he'll go out managing that same way. In reality, who would he have learned from? He doesn't listen to the GM (who isn't exactly the guy who want training a manager). Other than that, he's the boss of the team. Ozzie is very stubborn, and his stubbornness leads to bad decisions sometimes. He'll do the same thing in Florida (if he goes there), and we'll have to wait and see what sort of results he'll have. You have your opinion that any new guy won't be any better than Ozzie. I (and many others) disagree. But, again we'll have to wait and see. I personally think that Ozzie's emotions and hard-headedness gets in the way of making good baseball decisions. Someone more level headed who concentrates on the game vs. what to say to the media will do a better job...in my opinion. 2.) Fair enough. Good post. 1.) I think it's a tough call for Jerry on Ozzie. I think unless there's something known behind the scenes (like Ozzie doesn't work hard; comes to work late; is rude to people; stuff like that) I would keep Ozzie and reassign Kenny. It's obvious the two can't work together and because of their dual stubborness, either both have to go or one has to go. They did it to themselves and they are grown men, not dummies, and even they certainly realize both have committed fireable offenses with their inability to put the team first. Now if Ozzie does work hard, does care, is a good employee in those regards (which we are not privy to that information), then I would keep him as manager because of my stated reasons. He is young and frankly probably going to be a better candidate than anybody the Sox bring in. There is a danger in bringing Ozzie back, however. And this is what JR must think about. He could come back and we could have the exact same scenario next season. Get off to a rotten start, play horribly at home, be an instant buzzkill team again. That will mean NO FANS. If Ozzie is gone in favor of another manager and hitting coach, in theory there will be hope that Dunn, Rios and Beckham can rebound. The stories in the winter and ST will be about how these hitters like the new hitting coach, etc., and expect a full turnaround. The Sox will be in the news a lot and a FRESH START might translate to optimism and ticket sales. Tough call. I'd prefer keeping Ozzie cause he's still young and learning. But I can see why they'd want a fresh start. Greg's call, which you asked for: Keep Ozzie.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 12:04 AM) Talking out of his ass again with absolutely nothing to back it up. But I bet he polled an assortment of acquaintances to come to that conclusion. QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 12:06 AM) Even if I liked Ozzie and thought he was a competent manager, I'd still want him gone just to see greg's reaction. It's gonna be epic if it happens. This board would never be more entertaining. 1.) You guys really think things won't change in baseball and Philly and Atlanta are just gonna dominate year after year? If so then I'm mistaken. Florida isn't exactly Chicago Cub-like. 2.) You will be surprised at my reaction. I told everybody earlier I didn't care if he got fired. I think Ozzie even expected to get the boot in mid May. He is not dumb; by baseball standards he deserved to get booted at that time. A high payroll, supposed contender, was what, nine or 10 under .500? Or seven under or something? I just happen to believe he's going to be better than whomever we hire to replace him. And I think he's SO young it's a shame he learned on the job here while winning one WS (which the Sox NEVER do) and he's only going to get better. It's a shame the Sox "trained" him for his next gig. I love Ozzie but I'm not going to freak at all when the boot comes.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 12, 2011 -> 09:45 PM) Let's say I just patently accept that Juan Pierre is 100% to blame for the three games this season in which he dropped a routine fly ball. Now, let's go ahead and ridiculously assign another 2 whole losses to him for his April offense. There, that's 5 of the 22 losses. Who are the other 17 on? How many routine fly balls have flicked off the glove of Mr. Cool, Rios, as well? Great post Hibb.

Cmon. The Phillies aren't going to win it every year from now until 2050. Atlanta scares nobody. Their chances of making the playoffs or better are as good as the White Sox IMO.

QUOTE (bozzie @ Sep 12, 2011 -> 11:34 PM) For once, Ozzie displays the irreverence and fire that brought a World Series to Chicago and made fans - once - love him. As for throwing Dung under the bus, Dung has done that to himself. It has not been reported that he has done a single thing to try to break out of his slump. He is lazy. Ozzie should have called him out in July, not September. There's a difference between "accountability" and throwing someone under the bus. Finally, after six months of agony for Sox fans, White Sox management is holding Adam Dung accountable. Meanwhile, I have it on good authority that all Adam Dung is holding is a Tall Boy. He's a fat, lazy pig and played like it. Check that, even a sloppy boar could hit more than .037 against left handed pitching. He deserves anything Ozzie Guillen wants to say about him. I'll try to lay off the personal attacks, but the basic premise is true. Ozzie should blast Dunn. This is supposed to be big-boy baseball, not Little League.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 12, 2011 -> 08:24 PM) Maybe Sqwert, Thornton not getting anyone out in April was cause for Pierre's bad defense. Can't have your fielders standing around in the cold. Pierre's .342 with runners in scoring position cannot be denied. I'm starting to love this Marty 34. Ah I love life when I have somebody on my side.

There's not much they can do except suck again next year with many of the same characters. Since they potentially have an outfield of Tank, DeAza and Rios (ugh, but we can't get rid of him), I guess we could trade CQ but I think that really cripples an already anemic lineup. I wouldn't be against trading Beckham, Crain and AJP. Flowers and Castro would be good enough at catcher. You can always find a second baseman.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 12, 2011 -> 07:19 PM) 15 hits, 6 walks in 8.1 April innings for Thornton Sqwert. He was awful. The team was awful. Let's face it. I love what Juan Pierre made out of his season; a couple agree with me; many disagree. I do think he catches way too much blame on a team where he's been the third best hitter.

It seems cut and dried. If they won't extend him, it's off to Florida where I say he gets four years. Many of you tell me I'm wrong and he'll 'only' get three.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Sep 12, 2011 -> 08:03 PM) 1) Hibbard conducted a ridiculous amount of research to prove that an 11-22 start is an insurmountable record for turning things around and making the post season. 2) Juan Pierre for the first 6 weeks of the season was literally the worst every day player in all of baseball when taking account various stats. This obviously contributed heavily towards that 11-22 start. 3) Since in #1 above we already established that 11-22 was insurmountable, who cares what he did later in the season? It didn't matter anymore. The damage was done. We continued to trot out the worst player in MLB, digging ourselves in a deeper hole. There's nothing left to prove except that when it no longer mattered, he started putting up better numbers. People turn arguments around to suit their feelings. So Pierre had a bad month and that's that to many. Look what he's hit with runners in scoring position. Think of how many games he helped the team win compared to the other bums in the lineup. But I'll say it again ... but he was soooo bad in April. Wah. I agree! He sucked in April. But look at his seasonal body of work. How come that matters regarding some players and not others who are hated like Juan???

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Sep 12, 2011 -> 06:41 PM) He was a key reason why we started out so poorly. You even created an entire thread on how insurmountable our awful start was so I'm not sure it matters that he played better after he helped this team get into a hole which couldn't be overcome. If you recall, many of us were posting the stats in early May that demonstrated how he was literally the worst baseball player in MLB at that time. Yes he stunk and the Sox as a whole stunk. It doesn't diminish what Hibbard said. Please respond to that post.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 12, 2011 -> 06:36 PM) Once again it was that awful April that basically killed our chances this year But you can't deny Hibbard's last paragraph. He makes a key point about baseball stats and sabes. Blaming Pierre is ridiculous when Matt sucked as well and others sucked. Dunn didn't help us win a game for the first 2 months.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 12, 2011 -> 03:51 PM) I looked at Pierre's gamelog for May, and it did seem like there were missed running opportunities there, so some of the people on the other side of this debate seem to have a point. I didn't realize that he's .342 with runners in scoring position this season, and I wonder where his RBI total ranks for leadoff hitters. He does finally have a positive WAR, for what its worth. I know people will say he righted the ship at a time that it didn't mean anything, but seems like 90% of mlb players' careers are built on statistics accrued when those players aren't playing for anything, since baseball has such an unforgiving playoff structure. Another great post by Hibbard. I absolutely love those last 2 paragraphs! "But he had a bad April." .... Wah wah.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 12, 2011 -> 06:26 PM) Yeah, KW really blew it by not bringing Bobby back this year. He's been great for Boston. They had a steal. Theo Epstein is a genius. Who said I was mad we didn't bring Bobby back? That wasn't the discussion point. It was about calling players fat and I said I wouldn't do it anymore regarding Dunn.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Sep 12, 2011 -> 03:47 AM) This right here is just downright laughable. Milkman and I have had a ton of disagreements in our times on this board but he's been here for at least 6 or 7 years now, that's through good seasons and bad, to call him a fair weather fan, especially when you've been here for a whole week is f***in ludicrous. Hey he called you a fare weather fan, nothin to get mad about. There is no such thing. Now if he called u a "fair weather fan" that'd be a different story. Forgive my desire to edit tonight.