The Kids Can Play

I know hindsight is 20-20, but in the 2018 draft, Hahn used the 4th overall pick on JR SS Nick Madrigal from Oregon State. The Cincinnati Reds used the 5th overall pick to take JR 3B Johnathon India from Florida, who apparently could play other infield positions. The Sox moved Madrigal to 2nd and then traded him. Since that trade he has failed badly for the Cubs and now being sent down to AAA. The Reds on the other hand, moved India to 2nd base. He has been playing for the Reds three years now. This year he is: .289/.379/415/791 and a WAR of 1.4. His 3 year career averages are .265/.360/.423/.783 with a WAR of 0.99. India is also a much bigger frame at 6'0" 200 lbs.

That's a tough one. If he is going to continue struggling not only offensively, but making all type of defensive errors and base stealing mistakes, then yes I would give him the 1 million buyout and let someone else try to change him. However if you think he can have a rebound year and he can drastically change his attitude and lack of leadership, then it might be worth it, Although it would be a huge risk to pay the 14 million. Even if you give him the 14 million, you are doing that only based on the fact you are going to trade him at the 2024 trade deadline regardless of how much or little you get back in a trade. It's really sad how we have gone from Tim being one of the most exciting players on the team and in baseball to watch and cheer for...to the current state where he is terrible, in addition to having a really overinflated ego and misunderstanding of his production value.

You can do that and I assume you would move Moncada since at this stage he has way more value than Burger. However what team is going to give up a good second baseman unless you had some team desperate for a third baseman and have a few quality second baseman on their major league roster. I seriously doubt that team and possibility even exists. I do like the idea of trading Moncada but let's wait closer to the trade deadline and then find some team to give us prospects and maybe one of them could be a promising young second baseman. Of course if genius Hahn didn't butcher and destroy the farm system, there should have been a decent second baseman to bring up.

The fact some players if any, may not want to play for the White Sox...has nothing to do with the fans. The reason Tim Anderson apparently hates this team and Jose Abreu suggested a bad culture here, is only because of the Horrible Owner, dysfunctional Front Office and terrible manager and coaching staff. The Sox fans are probably one the most loyal fanbases in baseball. It's a credit to the these loyal fans that still even go to the ballpark, knowing how bad this team has been and how expensive it is to watch a bad team lose all the time.

The first two games are the key as to whether we will take 3 of 4 or sweep Detroit. In tonight's game, Giolito has been the most consistent pitcher of all Sox starters. In his last 8 starts he has 2.70 ERA. He is only 3-3 because the offense has not been supporting him. In game two, Lynn who obviously has struggled all season, has been strong the last two starts with a 2.08 ERA. The 3rd game is obviously a ? and if somehow we could win that game, then I would think Cease in game 4 would have a solid chance to win and sweep. The realistic outcome is 3 of 4. It better not be anything less. If they only take 2 of 4 or 1 of 4, then you can pretty much close the book on the 2023 season and the Sox chances of winning the division. This team will have proven they don't have the mental toughness or skill set to compete as a playoff contender.

We agree on one thing, regardless whether the Sox are in the race or not at the trade deadline, we need Grandal traded. There is absolutely no benefit to keeping him for the rest of the season and not getting some prospects for him, as opposed to Grandal gone next year as a UFA. Also to your point, that if a team can afford to have a good defensive catcher and not need his offense, that is 100 percent true for this Sox team, when Eloy comes back and hopefully Jake plays everyday.

Don't get me wrong I am a big Vaughn fan too and believe in time we will get more consistent. I am not debating if Vaughn is better than Burger at 1B. He probably is for now only because he played it his entire life. Also yes Vaughn is the #1 RBI player on the team. However based on the amount of games Andrew has played versus Burger, Jake is averaging more RBI's per game. Vaughn has 31 RBI's in 49 games compared to Burger has 24 RBI's in 33 games. Vaughn is averaging 0.632 RBI's per game vs. Burger at 0.727 RBI's per game. That is why we need both of their bats in the lineup along with Moncada all at the same time. The real debate here is how do we keep Burger in the same lineup once Eloy comes back and takes away the DH role from Jake. In my opinion it makes no sense to move Burger to 2B to a position he never played before. There is a lot more critical plays at 2B than first. Burger does not have the agility or quickness to play 2B. We learned from the last few years how stupid it is to make people play positions they have never played before. Yes this would be a new position for Burger playing 1B, but if you can play 3B, you can play 1B. In fact many third basemen in past history have moved from third to first. You also can't put Eloy in the OF as he would clearly get injured sooner than later. He can only play one spot and that is DH. The best move is Moncada to 2B since we did trade for him as being a 2nd baseman and #1 prospect at that position. Again I am not, nor have I ever claimed Burger is a belter 3B than Moncada. I am simply looking at the logic of keeping both bats in the lineup on a daily basis. As a result you either put Burger at 3rd or 1st. Vaughn at least has the experience even though limited, to play the OF.

The problem is we don't have a legitimate 2B other than moving Moncada to 2B. All the others are: Elvis Andrus - .201/.280/.254/.534/ -0.4 Hanser Alberto - .219/.266/.397.663/ 0.3 Romy Gonzalez - .200/.212/.320/.532/ -0.6 I'm sorry, but Moncada at 3B with one of three slugs at 2B is not better than Burger at 3B and Moncada at 2B.

Ok maybe Vaughn isn't that good. However the one thing different this year is you have a competent left fielder in addition to arguably the best center fielder in baseball. Having Vaughn is right and knowing he really doesn't have to cover that much ground will not kill us. I think that is a lot better move than moving Burger to 2B where he never played. Imo, I fully believe with Jack's size and lack of true 2B quickness, he could get injured easier than sticking him at first.

Yes, but not me. From day one I have been adamant that Moncada should move to 2nd. I know Moncada is better at 3rd than Burger, but the point is we need both bats in the lineup. Plus when they moved Moncada to 3rd, that was several years ago. How do we know if he goes back to 2B he won't play the position better. He has improved as a fielder and he should be able to make the adjustment. Hell, he played 2B his entire life up until the move. Since the Sox genius braintrust will not move Moncada to 2B, then put Burger at 1st. He would be better at 1B than Vaughn and Vaughn can play the OF. Maybe Vaughn is not great in the OF, but he wasn't that bad. Burger has never played 2B or OF. Plus you cannot put Eloy in the OF as he would be an injury waiting to happen.

That's prudent money well spent! ?

I don't need "cherry picked" stats to know Seby is a far superior catcher to Grandal defensively. I watch all the games and I can see for my own eyes, that I don't see passed balls and balls in the dirt getting past Seby like they constantly do with Grandal. Plus, now that stolen bases are a bigger thing, it's also a benefit to know Seby has the better arm than Grandal to stop the stolen base attempts. Do the Sox give up production offensively? Absolutely they do. However when you have three solid pitchers like Cease, Kopech and Giolito, you want your best catcher behind the plate getting the best results from these three pitchers. For the loss of hitting from Seby to Grandal...is so made up in volumes with Seby catching them. Plus I think Seby will hit better once he is the full time catcher in the future. It's always been a baseball fact the hitting always improves when you play full time and not occasionally. Finally to your question do I think Cease, Kopech and Giolito think Grandal is the reason they were bad early in the season? Of course they would never call out Grandal publicly, but I would bet anything that if Grifol asked each of them before each of their starts, which catcher do you want and they would be given their wish...there is not doubt in my mind all three would absolutely pick Seby 100 percent of the time. Btw, let's not forget Grandal is an UFA after this season. So it might be time to find a new home for him at the trade deadline. I don't care if his value is down, just get some prospects, as opposed to getting nothing.

People see what an idiot Reinsdorf has been recently. However it's always good to go down memory lane. Long before Jerry's stupid LaRussa hire and letting Jerry Krause get rid of Michael Jordan and Phil Jackson after 6 titles, Jerry also, as you so correctly pointed out, screwed his own White Sox team in 1994. The Sox team that easily could have won him his first WS title before the 2005 WS title...and all because the arrogant idiot wanted to crush the player's Union at the expense of his own team.

I do appreciate your positive optimism and rally cry. I'm thankful you informed us nothing is wrong and all are panicking is too much and way overboard. As you summed it up, it looks like the Sox are making the playoffs, which will be easy sailing by going 40-20 in the next 60 games. Here is what you are missing: 1. Yes we are only 5.5 games out of first place. However in the last 15 games we have played 12 of them against teams under 500. We play in the worst division in baseball and still 9 games under. 2. Your assumption that Tim Anderson will get back to his lofty numbers from a few years ago is ridiculous optimism. It's not just because TA's stat line is the worst ever, he has no power with zero HR's and hits mostly groundballs, weak flyouts and more strikeouts. He has some serious mental issues and his arrogant attitude...that he is still the best player on the field, is now beyond annoying. He was quoted the other day saying, he understand why no pitcher would ever want to throw him a fastball. That is comical! Two games ago TA struck out with two men on with no outs in the top of the 7th when we just went ahead 4-2. Tim's last two swings and misses were basic 94 mph fastballs in the zone. He not only can't hit off speed pitches, which was always his weakness, but now he can't catch up to the fastballs, even though he told us he will kill FB's when he eventually sees them again. Hence why he has a stat line of: BA.244. OBP.284, SLG .282, OPS .565, WAR -0.5. 3. Your analogy of the Sox being a Porsche with a flat tire is wildly exaggerated and hilarious. Even if when we get Eloy back in this lineup, we are still flawed in plate discipline, situational hitting and hitting with RISP. Even with Hendricks coming back and Crochet now back, it will take time for those two to be major contributors. Crochet because he is coming off TJS and Hendricks coming off fighting and beating cancer, while having his strength zapped from such intense chemotherapy and radiation treatments. Yes the starters look good lately and the bullpen is looking better, but if we get any more injuries like Clevinger, we are dead on arrival. 4. You stated the Burger "feel good" story is now over because he had a couple of bad games. I don't recall reading any poster on SoxTalk saying the Burger's run was over. Yes we all mentioned he had a couple of bad games going 0-15 in the last 4 games. However I do believe imo, a large majority of posters here still believe in Jake and want him in the future lineup daily once Eloy comes back. 5. Even if this team has this amazing turnaround and wins the worst division in baseball as you are predicting, do you really think they have any chance to go deep in the playoffs? 6. Finally, most of the people here that you are are complaining about that have reached "Maximum Crazy" is again exaggerated. The posters here are die-hard Sox fans just like you. However these Sox fans are also stating the obvious facts of the 2016 rebuild debacle. We still remember vividly the promises of multiple championships and the arrogant comments about, "I'll see you at the parade." Not only has the rebuild been a failure, the biggest crime is the way Hahn and the FO mishandled and destroyed the farm system for now and into the future. The Sox farm system was ranked 29th in 2022 and now 26th this season. The most important prospects in any farm system are the pitchers and the ability to keep developing productive pitchers. This is the glaring failure for the Sox. Even if we win the weakest division in baseball this year, we are screwed for the next several years with the farm system. Case in point: In AAA, the Charlotte Knights pitching staff in the 20 team Intl league is dead last with a team ERA of 5.97. If that wasn't enough going wrong, the AA Birmingham Barons are also dead last in the Southern league in team ERA at 5.49. I ask you seriously, based on this flawed roster, an injury prone team, terrible situational hitting team with RISP and one of the worst farm systems in baseball, not to mention the worst Owner and GM combo in the league....how could you ever compare this team to a Porsche, even with a flat tire? I am not being negative. I want this team to win as bad as anyone here. However I won't be burned again and set my expectations so damn high and then get let down again. I did buy into the multiple championships. Going forward it's better I go forward with concerns and reservations and not get too excited. If they prove me wrong, then god bless them and we'll call that a major "blessing in disguise."

Totally agree! These three starters should never have to have Grandal catch for them again...NEVER! I don't give a s%*# if Seby's bat isn't as good at Grandal, his catching skills for these three Sox pitchers is a must. They should not have to be subjected to an older and slower Grandal, who isn't as good as Seby at digging out the off-speed pitches out of the dirt. I also think Seby calls a better game.

You mean KC 4 times, Astros 3 times when they were minus several starters and struggling and Guardians 6 times. It's impressive but let's see how they do against the good teams coming up on the schedule.

Nice back to back starts for Kopech! Hopefully going forward this is the new dominant Kopech we were all hoping for from day one of the Chris Sale trade. These last two starts have been MLB elite, with W-L, 2-0, 15 IP, 19 K's, 1 BB, 0 ER's. His fastball is definitely elite electric with that extra gear as its been referred to as. I recall earlier in the season many of us were complaining (me included) about Kopech's fastball velocity being down. In today's game Kopech hit the following FB speeds on the radar gun.....96+ 26 times, 97+ 11 times, 98+ 4 times and 99+ 2 times. This is ML elite velocity along with elite accuracy in his last two starts. The offense is still very spotty and inconsistent. Only 4 hits, but we'll take the 6 runs.

TA is so delusional. In the top of 7th inning last night after we went ahead 4-2 with no outs, Tim Anderson lead off and struck out. The last two swings and misses were both just basic fastballs he could not catch up to.

He needs to be traded! His attitude sucks and so does his hitting. The best players on the field don't have stat lines like this: GP HR RBI BB AVG OBP SLG OPS WAR 31 0 6 6 .244 .284 .283 .567 -0.6

The initial sell-off trades in 2016 were good. That was phase 1, but there are more important phases that have to occur in subsequent years that went seriously wrong. Here are the problems: - Unwise draft picks between 2017 with high picks in 2017 Sheets 1B, 49th, 2018 - Madrigal 2B, 4th, 2019, Andrew Vaughn 1B 3rd. - Horrible trade deadline trades with Madrigal and Heuer for Kimbrel, Reese McGuire for Jake Diekman and Konner Pilkington for Cesar Hernandez. - F grade for Free Agent signings and not landing one high end significant Free Agent and settled for Kuechel, Grandal, Benintendi and Clevinger. - Complete debacle of scouting, drafting and developing prospects in the farm system after the initial first few years of the rebuild. When the Sox brought up all the top prospects they did nothing to re-stock the farm system. In the last five years the Sox farm systems have been ranked 2019 - 9th, 2020 - 11th, 2021 - 16th, 2022 - 30th and 2023 - 26th. With the shambles the current Sox farm system is in, the Sox will probably be even lower than 26th going into 2024. - After the Sox fired Renteria, the next manager LaRussa was an utter disaster and Grifol isn't that much better. - Bad choices in hires of pitching and hitting coaches. The Sox plate discipline is one of the worst in baseball, as is their situational hitting. Katz is over his head and has done nothing to improve the pitching staff. - Most important failure was when things went wrong in the rebuild, we had the worst owner in baseball who did nothing to make any changes in the front office...to stop the downfall of the failed rebuild.

Cease looked better and bullpen was sharp again. It was really bothersome in the top of the 7th when we went ahead 4-2 from Romy our weakest hitter, then with no outs and runners on 2nd and third, Anderson, Burger and Robert all strikeout. Good teams jump all over a team when they are vulnerable like that. The Sox going forward will tease us with some victories here and there and give us false hope they can win the division...but the fact still remains, this is a seriously flawed offensive team.

That 1994 Sox team still does and will always bother me because that team was good enough to the World Series. Even though Frank Thomas only played 113 games that year, his stat line for 1994 was on par with any of his other huge seasons when he played a full season. I am posting Frank's 1994 year below when he won the MVP and look how it compares to the previous season in 1993 when he also won the MVP. Year G AB R H 2B HR RBI BB BA OBP SLG OPS WAR 1994 113 399 106 141 34 38 101 109 .353 .487 .729 1.217 7.0 MVP 1993 153 549 106 174 36 41 128 112 .317 .426 .607 1.033 6.3 MVP

Of course...because we have a passive rookie manager who is over his head and came from a losing baseball club! However the biggest reason IMO...Pedro is probably intimidated by TA.

Great information and very telling on why Hahn needs to be fired! These numbers are very bothersome and clearly show why Hahn has: - Destroyed the rebuild! Now we are potentially looking at a second rebuild 2.0. - Put together a horribly flawed roster, which equates to a team 11 games under 500, with the 3rd worst record, in the worst division in baseball. - Failed miserably in building a quality farm system because he was inept in hiring the right people to help him in scouting, drafting and developing young productive prospects, which equates to the 26th ranked farm system. - Is dreadfully bad at making trades, free agent signings and squandered away the 11th highest payroll of 186 million, which equates to one of the most embarrassing and dysfunctional franchises in baseball. No other owner in baseball except for Reinsdorf, would look at this horrendously unsuccessful track record over 10 years and not have fired Hahn by now.

I love the home grown players too, but only if they are good. Massey is a 2nd baseman with bad numbers on a bad team. Michael Massey AVG OBP SLG OPS WAR 208 . 259 .300 .559 -0.5 The Sox not only do not want or need Massey, but they don't need any of the Royals' prospects in any trade. The Royals farm system is actually ranked worse than our pathetic Sox farm system at 29th. The Royals only have one prospect in the MLB top 100 and that is an OF at #62. If Vaughn is going to be traded, then the Sox need to go to a WS contender looking for those extra few players at the deadline, that have an abundance of good prospects they can afford to give up. You definitely don't go to the Royals that are a worse organization than the Sox! Plus the Royals will be sellers at the deadline just like we should be. The Sox are looking for buyers at the trade deadline.