MurcieOne

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 07:14 PM) More great discussion on Chicago Tonight. They are focusing on the main issues of contention, evaluations and hiring. This. I watched the videos last night and Chicago Tonight explains the issues better than any other outlet I've seen thus far.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 01:22 PM) I'm also still trying to find where the 16% comes from other than the city. The only number I've seen in print with specifics I've posted in this thread, and it comes down to 9% raise over 4 years, which is just a cost of living adjustment. I haven't seen 16% number anywhere else than attributed to the City. Then again, I haven't seen the CTU coming out and attacking that figure either. I still haven't found where that 16% number comes from.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 12:47 PM) And really, this whole way of doing things by pre-setting numbers like that is a crappy way to do things. Set a baseline set of salaries per level/seniority/degree/merit, agree on a market basket, and say in the contract they get a COLA based on that basket for the length of the contract. Then, seperately, if they want to argue for a raise beyond that, that can be up for discussing and adjustments to the original baselines can be set. But predeterming raises like that seem, to me, to be a stupid way to do things. I like and appreciate your practicality.

Honestly, I don't think the issue is how much teacher's work or how hard teacher's work. I think they have tough jobs, especially in some of these schools where parents do more to stunt education than otherwise. To me, I'm more concerned about getting bad teachers out of CPS, and without a ridiculously laborious grievance/arbitration process. Principals should have the ability to manage their staffs and make personnel changes as necessary. CPS has the responsibility to hire competent principals that don't abuse that power, and must hold them accountable if the do. In terms of pay, I don't think this group has much of a gripe. They are paid as well as teachers in similarly situated cities.

QUOTE (Cerbaho-WG @ Sep 10, 2012 -> 09:10 PM) Lastly, I've been trying to find the 16% pay increase proposal from the City of Chicago and not a newspaper article. Anyone got it? Sorry, I really just can't find it. It's probably a moot point since it seems that the unions have agreed to it. Thanks. I haven't been able to find that number, except for newspaper articles citing what CPS alleges to have offered. FWIW, The Tribune cites that same number in its editorial column that will be published tomorrow. But yes, the dollars seem to been agreed upon.

QUOTE (Jake @ Sep 10, 2012 -> 06:53 PM) That attitude in general will hold back progress in getting good compensation for workers. At least elucidate the facts like most of us are trying to in this thread. Sometimes the workers won't be in the right, sometimes they will. Sometimes it will be a matter of philosophical differences. I agree with you. I don't want to get into the politics of everything, but the disparity of wealth in this country is an issue. However, this particular group of organized labor doesn't warrant my sympathies. Everyone always wants more money, but I think that the statistics show that CPS teachers are paid adequately for their services. They are going to get 4% raises. Even if they concede on the principals authority to strike issue, they still have better job security than 95% of the labor force. I'm not against education, I'm not against teachers, but I can't support this particular strike.

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Sep 10, 2012 -> 03:05 PM) Oh, I agree with you, I'm just playing devils advocate a bit. It's pissing me off because every other post on my facebook is from CPS teachers or former CPS students saying "Is you're against the teachers strike, you need to get educated." What's really funny is that I bet the majority of those same people don't really understand the issues at hand.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 10, 2012 -> 01:52 PM) Does anyone have a reference for the "the average teacher in chicago makes $74k" number? I'm going through the BLS tables, it's a nightmare to figure out, but they list something like 200k teachers in the chicago area and show an average teacher salary of $56k, with a wide distribution depending on specialty. I haven't looked up figures from any internal reports, however, I was referencing this article: http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/06/12/how...-teachers-make/ There is some dispute depending on which side you ask; CPS states that the average teacher makes 76,000 per year, while an attorney for the CTU says it's more like 71,000. Either way, they currently rank either 1st or 2nd in the nation (according to the article).

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 10, 2012 -> 01:39 PM) I find it disheartening that the typical response to one group of workers having comparatively better wages, benefits, employment protections and bargaining power is for other groups of workers to tear them down, to decry them for not suffering like the rest of us. I agree, but these workers aren't the typical worker. These employees, essentially, work for us. We pay for them, and they haven't been producing results that anyone can say justifies a pay raise. Also, nobody is asking them to take a pay cut. These employees are just being asked to work as much (less even) than their counterparts nationwide. They're essentially being asked to take LESS of a raise. When the calculus on these issues is added up, it's just very hard to justify their positions, at least in my eyes. In terms of the termination issue, I think unions are a necessary safe guard from unfair labor practices. That doesn't mean, however, that under performing teachers should get a free pass from scrutiny and, if necessary, termination. Protections should still remain in place, however, the principals put in charge of these schools have the best ability to observe and value the services that their teachers provide. I think they should have the right to terminate a teacher if they think they aren't up to the task. I don't think a principal is going to go out of his/her way to terminate a teacher, unless there is a reason to do so.

QUOTE (Jake @ Sep 10, 2012 -> 12:31 PM) Pay them more, allow principals/administrators to fire people. Done and done. From what I've read, CPS has agreed to 4% raises each year for 4 years (16% total). CTU is fine with that, but won't budge on the termination issue.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Sep 10, 2012 -> 12:21 PM) I just dont understand how things are that bad. These arent coal miners who are injured at a high clip and being given no health insurance. I know a lot of people who would take considerably less to work in CPS. That is the part teachers dont seem to understand right now. Maybe back in the day people didnt want to be teachers, but now a ton do because it has good benefits, good pay and a pretty laid back lifestyle. I disagree that it's a pretty laid back lifestyle. I think for most good CPS teachers, it's the opposite. Trying to get kids to learn when their families don't give a s*** etc. . . But I just feel like they're already well compensated for their jobs. They have good salary and benefit programs. What about the tax payers? The financial situation of the Chicago Public Schools is in really bad shape. The situation of the State of Illinois – which helps fund the Chicago Public Schools is in really bad shape. The property tax payers in Chicago are beleaguered. There is a big drop in property values, and asking them to pay increased property taxes, so that appropriately paid teachers can get a raise is tough.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 10, 2012 -> 08:30 AM) They added 90 minutes, how long is the school day? They changed that plan, the school day is only being extended 60 minutes. That brings CPS close, but still under the national average for length of school day (among other big cities). Oh, and the average CPS teacher makes 76,000 per year (highest in the nation). Not to mention how, year after year, CPS fails to graduate half its students. I know that teachers aren't the only ones to blame, but how about getting some value for our tax dollars? Apparently, the main issue is whether or not principals should be able to fire teachers. CTU vehemently opposes that. This is a NATIONAL issue and I feel like Karen Lewis and the CTU are getting pressured from other unions to fight this one hard. If CPS can fire teachers without the ridiculous grievance/arbitration process, then that will set a standard for the nation. I know a lot of good teachers, but I feel like these changes need to be made. I support the Mayor on this one, I hope he wins.

Nice to see Morel have a decent game at the plate. Not sure if his back hasn't gotten quite right, or if his confidence is shattered. . . but 194/242/250 in AAA seems like a giant step backwards.

Beckham in a 2 strike count. Uh-oh,

WR Joe Anderson was cut today, hopes to return via practice squad.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Aug 31, 2012 -> 10:52 AM) Wait, what? Really? They got him back? Yeah, he was cut by the Bucs. He's resigning with the Bears, pending a physical.

Reported Bears cuts so far: McCown McCoy Golden Clutts Armando Allen (meaning Booker likely to win 3rd RB job). Reported Bears additions: Okoye

Fun Facts: In 2002: George W. Bush was president. The White Sox finished 81-81 The highest paid player on the roster was Frank Thomas ($9,927,000). Mark L Johnson was the White Sox starting Catcher. Todd Ritchie lost 15 games (acquired in the offseason for Sean Lowe, Josh Fogg, and Kip Wells). Danny Wright and John Garland were the future of the rotation. Rolls Royce Clayton posted a sterling .661 OPS. The Ray Durham era ended, and he was traded to Oakland for . . . Jon Adkins. Kenny Lofton was our opening day CF, until he was traded to SF for Ryan Meaux and Felix Diaz to make way for the Grindy One. JOOOOE CREEEDE took over 3B down the stretch. Joe Borchard(Hah!) made his first appearance on the big club. Jason Gage (finally) lost his virginity. SS2K5 surpassed the 50,000 post mark by labor day.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Aug 29, 2012 -> 07:18 PM) My wife could have typed this word for word. Ditto Jenks and ditto your wife, titto them even.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Aug 27, 2012 -> 01:12 PM) I agree. I wonder what possessed Hawk to come up with this line? Maybe he is trying to reinvent himself It seems like he tries out a few new lines each year. I think "hell, yeah" has been retired from his rotation. Same with "an A-BOMB by Dunn"

Video Link LoL @ Donnie Veal (I think) looking like an overwhelmed child in the group shots.

DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!

Really enjoyed reading through this thread. Very helpful to reacquaint myself with the state of the farm system. Things don't seem as bad as they once were.

Not a good thread.

Just a few hypothetical quotes from Cowley's inevitable column next year: "This week the only manager to win a world series for an otherwise hapless organization returns to the south side of Chicago. Not to unveil a statute in his honor, which is obviously deserves, but to manage against his former team." "A source familiar with the situation revealed to me that "The players know Coop is the real manager, and that Robin is just Kenny's lapdog." "They had a lot more respect for Ozzie's no nonsense approach." "In an exclusive to the Suntimes, Guillen opened up about his departure from the organization he loyally served as a player and manager for nearly 20 years. "It was total bull****." Guilled said. "They turn they back on me and I lead them to a world series. All I ask was for permission to run my team. I just be honest with them and tell them they suck. A lot of guys in that clubhouse betray me and betray what we build here. They can kiss my ass." "I love Jerry, Jerry always be a like a father to me. I am the real Chicago strong. I always be a white sox and always love this organization" Don't count Guillen among those impressed with the White Sox surprising season in 2012. "Listen, Robin like a brother to me. I love Robin. But there is no way Robin a better manager than Ozzie Guillen. He got lucky three guys play the way they supposed to. Ozzie Guillen can't hit for Adam Dunn or Alex Rios, he can't pitch for Peavy, those guys play the way they suppose to then Ozzie Guillen still manager of the Chicago White Sox." "That is no disrespect for Robin, that is just the truth." Sorry just needed to run through that exercise. I feel so dirty.