Chisoxfn

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Nov 10, 2015 -> 05:07 PM) I think the award should judge what did happen on the field, not what should have happened if everyone had the same defense. Sorry Chris, just gonna have to strike everyone out next year. Where aer you in the cy young thread, but the same points I make against Kershaw, I'll make against Sale. He did not deserve to win the Cy Young award.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 03:38 PM) fathom would probably tell you that I spent like my first 5-6 years here being the optimist to his pessimist. It should prove another point. I have a good buddy who we argue with insessantly and we have a theory, when we are on the same page of an argument, we have to be right. I think in this case, Balta, where we align strategically on the position of the org, we are probably right (and that is an unfortunate thing given where we are siding), haha. And I do remember all your years of optimism.

QUOTE (Baron @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 01:22 PM) That's the overall problem. Just wait until those prospects start failing. People that were for selling those players will be jumping the ship rapidly. Ontop of that we'll be in whose shape than we are now. The real question (for the front office) is whether we think the odds are greater of building / finding positional talent to surround our existing stars or are we better off moving those stars to get positional talent to improve. Or said another way, if we move Sale for a haul and those prospects bust, are we really in that different of a position as having Sale with a lot of lousy position players all around? Either way we are really bad and fast forward 2 years and Sale's contract isn't the big bargain it once was. I really think it comes down to, does the front office realistically think it can put the pieces around Sale / Q and the rest of the rotation and Abreu / Eaton to be legitimate contenders? And if so, can you do it relatively quickly. If that answer is no (because you don't think you have the right timing from your internal prospects and/or don't have the prospects in-house, nor do you have the resources to get said talent (FA / Trade) from other teams, then I think you need to move some of your proven pitching to try an alternate route. We are 59 games under .500 over the last three years and that is while Sale / Q / Abreu have been bonafide stars and during that span we've tried ways to surround them with better players, but in general we have failed. Maybe we should go with a different strategy. And in terms of Seattle...yeah, maybe that trade with Boston would have been lousy, but Seattle has sucked anyway, so does it really matter that they have King Felix. Also, just picking 3 players from that package (Reddick / Masterson / Buchholz). Since 2012, the three of them have an accumulated WAR of 22.5 while King Felix has had 21.1. This whole analysis is flawed and high-level, but it also doesn't reflect the $ value savings of the team with the other players, resources, which could then go into filling other holes (because you have solid players across the board). And obviously I'm just picking a random 3 year sample size and it isn't necessarily reflective of the period that the Mariners would have gotten, but either way, the Mariners have stayed in hell, so by not making the move I'd argue did they really separate themselves. If they went for it and whiffed, well, they still have no payroll constraints and are in a process of rebuilding (just one less star)...still a long way either way. Had they hit though, could have actually changed things (who knows). You also never know how a guy performs in an alternate scenario. And at different points in time you could have spun Clay or Masterson for other talent as well (as you ensured your roster was tooled to your liking).

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 01:08 PM) Just because they had the same defense doesn't mean it affected their performance in the exact same way. Defenses don't play the exact same way every game. Kershaw led baseball in lowest exit velocity coming off the bat. You're giving Greinke way too much credit for the outs he got without a strikeout. His absurdly low BABIP (.229 vs. a career .298) suggests he was a huge beneficiary of good luck. Hell Brett Anderson led the MLB in soft-hit% and gave up the lowest line drive rate of all qualified starters, yet behind that same defense he still had a BABIP over .300. Yes - Greinke might have been a beneficiary of good luck and that might mean it is unlikely that he repeats this performance going forward, however, good luck is part of what ACTUALLY happened this year and what actually drove the Dodgers to win extra games in his starts. IT ACTUALLY mattered. I understand if you want to isolate in terms of who you'd rather have in future years or who is more likely to repeat the performance because one was more driven by luck, but the award to me is based upon what actually happened during the season, not hypothetically removing / isolating the fact that a pitcher got lucky and less balls fell for hits then would normally occur. It is what actually happened during the season and awards should be based upon that. The attached is a decent read...exit velocity has more to do with various hitters, although pitchers do play a factor, it is far less significant a factor than the hitters play, but still a factor and it does play to your weight on the use of exit velocity and crediting Kershaw but you also don't factor who faced better lineups and people over the course of the season (I have no idea who did and I'm sure someone can pull a stat that shows it but whatever, I'll put more credence to actual reality of what happened vs. what could have happened when given an award for who pitched the best this year). I'm not about to hand out an MVP award in football based upon who got the most fantasy points or statistical measure either. http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-base...e-part-pitcher/

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 12:09 PM) Kershaw had the best FIP. I'd use that over ERA any day. Best FIP because of what. Because FIP values strike-outs more than anything out, but a good pitch still is effective. With the same defense, Greinke gave up fewer hits and had a lower WHIP. Yes, Kershaw gave up more homeruns than would be expected and he shouldn't have, but whatever, that doesn't matter because this is based upon real performance and this season he really did give up those runs.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 12:07 PM) And young "talent" has a way of disappointing. It wasn't long ago many were concerned about the date Matt Davidson had to wait so he wouldn't be a super 2. If they traded Q, Sale, Abreu, and Robertson for prospects, they would IMO no doubt be considered a top 5 farm system in baseball. If you look at the supposed top farm systems in baseball 4 or 5 years ago, and look at their top 10 prospects, there aren't very many of them making much of a contribution these days. I agree...that is why the only reason it would work is if you traded for a plethora of young talent to where you could afford misses (cause they will happen). To me this is more about ensuring you have quality position talent then anything else and I think you don't have to necessarily trade everyone. If you traded Sale and got 4-5 guys that you thought were potential major leaguers and 1-2 with relatively elite prospects (and maybe already proven to an extent to be solid), then you could fill multiple holes while only opening up 1 hole (and at an area that is relatively strong anyway and where we have a track record of internal success developing pitching).

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 12:07 PM) I don't because those teams are easily able to keep their prospects and spend $$ on a starter. I think a team like the Pirates would be much more likely to trade for Q or Sale because they could never get a player like that otherwise. The Dodgers goal is not to have a $300 million salary, nor is the Red Sox. They also want to remain competitive. If I were the Dodger and I can't get Greinke, I might be more comfortable trading some elite prospects for Sale (and saving the money) and then using a smaller portion of that money to make absurd international signings (and violate those rules).

http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/bastard-ex...-fx-1201642650/ By the way, I come to a different conclusion about Sutter reading this.

QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 11:31 AM) Kurt Sutter pulls a "You can't break up with me, because I'm breaking up with you!" cocks*** move and cancels Bastard Executioner before FX made any decision on it. Guess I'm not going to be watching any of his future projects. I wanted to like the show but it sucked and I stopped 3-4 episodes in. Maybe I'm just too stupid but the story was too stupid for me. Tried to play to some smarter / weird...I don't really know what the hell they were doing with it.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 11:19 AM) So in doing so, you're wrongly viewing all pitchers as having the same defenses behind them. Not really...I can factor in team defense myself but I think in the case of who we are talking about, Kershaw and Greinke play for the same team so I don't really need to consider defense. And, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but the award is based upon what happened, not what should have happened. Bottom line, advanced stats are great and I enjoy them and I consider them for awards, but actual performance matters too and when it comes to a pitcher, run prevention is a damn important metric, especially a starting pitcher (who has a largely sample size anyway). The fact that Greinke has that much less of a Bwar to me is driven more by the fact that the advanced stats give more credit to power pitchers than they do command pitchers. Greinke was incredible. He gave up 43 runs in total in his 32 starts (with 41 being earned). Arietta was also impressive, having given up 52 total runs in his outings. Yes, both were good, but Greinke was better. Greinke also pitched with more pressure as the Dodgers offense was incredibly s***ty for most of the year (especially down the stretch) vs. Arietta's offense. Greinke also had the lower WHIP. By the way, I think both of their seasons were incredible and I realize Kershaw had an absurd K/9 but he gave up a hell of a lot more runs than the other parties and that has to be considered. You could say it was bad luck that he gave up so many homers, but it happened. Bottom line, kershaw gave up 62 total runs...or 19 more than Greinke did (or 44% more). He also had a higher WHIP. Greinke could have had luck contribute to it, but the actual performance is still incredibly perfomance as it directly drives actual win / loss on the season (vs. hypothetical in a vacuum win / loss). Honestly, outside of Kershaw's absurd strikeout numbers, he shouldn't even be in the competition, but because an advanced metric like WAR pushes Kershaw as better then everyone else he gets in the competition. When you account for what actually happened, Kershaw, who was incredible, just doesn't belong with the other two.

Not sure if this is the right spot for my rant, but I think we are in this bind because you have a power struggle within that is pushing us to have such an incoherent strategy. I think Jerry is old and wants to win and Kenny is aggressive but Rick is pushing his agenda as well so you end up with a relatively dysfunctional process. To be honest, I just want to see progress being made. I'm tired of watching a paper champ or paper solid team with vets suck. A few stars and a bunch of s*** doesn't excite me either (which is our current roster). Lets turn the stars and load up on quality players and hopefully find a few new stars in the process. Do something to make baseball enjoyable again for me. I can't even stand watching most of the Sox games because they are such a stupid, awful fundamental baseball team that has a lot of players who are amongst the worst at their respective positions (but those players have very little upside and we have very little positional talent coming up in our system...cause we either can't draft it or can't develop it or a combo of both). f***...I'm turning into Balta (and I like being a super optimist). By the way, I still think we can retool pretty quick cause our stars should command a kings ransom. I also don't think we have the right manager but I don't know that I can pinpoint why cause the team also has sucked (and a mgr can only do so much) but the poor fundamentals, I can't ignore. Stupid players sure, but also reeks of lack of preparation or the right messaging.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 10:49 AM) Friday. Is that who we play after the Suns? Any word on Rose's status? Are they going to take it easy and have him miss tonight?

Their is zero chance it will be anyone other then Arrietta. That said, if I were voting I'd give it to Greinke, followed by Jake followed by Kershaw. f*** bwar. Actual performance by Greinke (and run reduction) was absolutely incredible (as was Jake's). Stats might say one should have been better, but I award individual performance based upon real performance and results, not hypothetical shoulda woulda coulda performance.

I think the Dodgers and Red Sox are two good places to look in terms of Q / Sale. Both have a lot of upper level major league ready (or already in major league) prospects.

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 10:13 AM) Anyone else watch The Last Kingdom? Pretty interesting historical drama that I'm just getting into, definitely worth checking out. BBC does some good stuff and I like this genre of stuff. Will have to watch.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 08:53 AM) Keep getting older Detroit. He was who I wanted last year. Guy is only 33 and is a money reliever. 2.21 ERA and a .860 WHIP last year. Far better value than the Robertson signing.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 08:42 AM) then you say, "We have plans A, B, C, and D in place, depending how things evolve." I think they did indicate that they have multiple plans but they are still deciding on what plan is more realistic / the right approach.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 07:47 AM) They've had 2 months to figure out a direction to go in. To me, Kenny's comments make the whole organization look incompetent. But to me, the biggest comment is that last one. There isn't that much available unless they are willing to spend money in FA on an OF or maybe SP, or go after some proven names on the trade market. If I were a betting man, those comments are saying that they might go rebuild, and that scares the s*** out of me. They have multiple plans, the problem is you don't know how realistic those plans are until you get into the off-season and start having more in-depth conversations with agents and other GM's (and the most recent meetings help gauge that). All this said, if we are debating between rebuild or going for it, it seems odd given the path we went that I would have thought their was more to last off-seasons plan then if it doesn't work, blow it up. Still, you have a ton of roster holes and you really don't know how well you match up with teams and where the market goes so you always have to react.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Nov 17, 2015 -> 03:38 PM) Major blockbuster proposal: SP Chris Sale, CF Adam Eaton, and SS Tim Anderson for SS Xander Bogaerts, CF Mookie Betts, C Blake Swihart, 3B Rafael Devers, and SP Eduardo Rodriguez Who says no? I'd want Moncada as well but that is an intriguing package. Bogaerts and Betts both have nice early MLB track-records Swihart is major league ready and a change of pace as well. Rodriguez is young and fits into a rotation now. I'd do this deal if you pulled out Eaton. Add in Moncada and would do this deal in general. I like the idea of getting a number of guys who fit in as current MLB starters with the only minor league piece being Rafael Devers (who is years away).

QUOTE (shipps @ Nov 17, 2015 -> 03:26 PM) I am with you. We have really had to endure some terrible teams across the board so I am willing to take what I can get. Do I like all the guys on this Bulls team? Hellllllllllll no.....but they are still my team and I want them to win badly. They have a fighting chance against the East until proven otherwise and I have enjoyed watching them feel their way through this transition period to Fredbergs system. It is something people forget. Sports are entertainment. The White Sox don't entertain me and thus I turn my eyes away more then ever before (I can't stand to watch bad baseball with a horribly constructed roster...the recent Sox have been one of the least watchable baseball teams that I've ever seen. So little to get excited for on an everyday basis).

I do think Niko is going to continue to suck if he keeps shooting 3's the way he is. His fundamentals going into the shot right now are horrific. Derrick Rose horrific. Not sure what is going on but too much movement and just poor body control on his 3's (even when they are wide open). I know he worked a lot on this in the off-season and you can see he has the potential to be a lights-out shooter from long distance (and he is in practice) but part of that is translating the smoothness of your form in practice to the game and in game situations he seems to rush or think he needs to do more and loses body control and thus makes long shots much harder then they are. That said, its his 2nd year and its early in the season and part of the goal of this year is to be at our strongest by the end of the season, so getting development in during the year (while also making it through the year relatively healthy and in a position to be "fresh" for the post-season is as good as it gets). Now players will have to cooperate and given less minutes has no guarantee on health but I'd hope it should allow for fresher players and more guys getting minutes and true developmental opportunities. Niko needs to learn from Doug who is night and day as a shooter this year vs. last year. His shot right now is freaking effortless from downtown (albeit last night he had some brutal shots). Heck in the late 3rd / most of the 4th, we had more ugly shot than I had seen in a long time. Just brutal on what were relatively open shots. Everyone was missing.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 17, 2015 -> 02:58 PM) We also had a Hall of Famer in the line up. In this deal, we'd be trading the face of our franchise, and unlike that deal, he is no where near free agency. I don't think Chris Sale puts fans in the seats. I really don't think a pitcher can help drive your attendance anyway, as they only pitch once every 5 days. I think you are overselling the impacts of moving Chris Sale. I honestly don't think the fan base would be dealt some death blow. Yes, if it was the Big Hurt in his prime, I could see it, he played every day and that allows for a fan to be more connected / emotionally tied to a player. As amazing as Chris Sale is, he still only plays in 20% of the Sox games (and historically even a little less than that due to injuries) so it is hard for that person to be as impactful on a franchise and overall draw. You think about people that are must watch and while their are some pitchers on that list, it is normally position guys. And again, I really don't care...I don't see how it could get that much worse from an attendance ratings perspective. Figure out ways to win and consistently win. Having a great player on a crappy team solves nothing. I want a good team and we should do whatever it takes to be good (and if the front office thinks that means you move someone like Sale, fine, sign me up).

The road trip will be interesting. Good time for the players to bond (I know not a lot of new faces, but still, an early road trip can be good, especially with the new coaching staff). It also provides a major early test. Either way, I've enjoyed the early part of this season and had fun watching the games, which after the past few years of watching White Sox baseball and last year's Bear season, is really something I have come to appreciate. I was busy screaming at the TV last night and fired up when Buckets had that last second block and that is more enthusiasm than I've had about a Sox game in 3 years (which just shows you the current state of the franchise given how we've been irrelevant by the end of April pretty much every year the past 3 years..which is sad and hard to freaking do).

I should point out, while the article is written to try and have an agenda that doesn't take into account the sample size, etc, their are some meaningful stats in their (for example Rose's shot chart breakdown) and I think really a lot of hidden positives for why, a it is too early to come to any conclusion, but B, why the glass is kind of half full (vs. half empty).

They are leading the league in opposing field goal percentage, which is an excellent sign and something we would have hoped would happen sooner then the offensive progression (since we were already a well coached defensive team...albeit we have a new tactician in Boylan). Offensively, we have seen signs of a really smooth offense while seeing major stagnation issues that would be expected from a new offensive system (plus an area where we historically were pretty limited in terms of overall offensive scheme and fluidity). Oh and I think a lot of these rankings are driven by +/- which is a s***ty stat when you had one particular game where we were obliterated. I think if you adjust for that Charlotte game (and you probably should, given the sample size) and you come to a different equation. Bottom line, we are seeing our defensive mentality still their (which was a major plus from Thibbs...now how long that intensity lasts who knows, Boyland has a strong track-record but he's not Thibbs) and offensively we've seen signs (including Rose minimizing turnovers and improving his assist numbers..especially in recent games). And while Rose has struggled with his shot, he has been so much more aggressive then any stretch last season (another plus). This is all while Snell / Niko have played like dumpster fires by (although Dougie has responded positively). Gasol is also starting to look more comfortable (as they are getting him more involved in the flow of the offense) and Jo is looking a heck of a lot more active (although still missing too many easy offensive looks).