Chisoxfn

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 12:26 PM) Who do we have available who can fill his roster role? Depends on if we think we still plan on trying to contend. Sanchez slides into that role with Micah getting the spot he deserved where he can work at the big league level the rest of the year and give us a far better expectation of whether we can mark 2B as a position we don't have to worry about going forward.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:56 AM) Honestly not really. We always took two big vacations a year growing up. One was to the beach (usually Jersey shore) and one was to a historical place, such as Boston, DC, Toronto, Montreal/Quebec City etc..So I've always been more interested in seeing new places and doing new things rather than stationary places. I'm not really a theme park person, so that's probably it. I'm cool with going to the Jersey boardwalk once or twice for a couple hours on a vacation and then I've had my fill. I should point out, I never went to Disneyland until I was an adult. My family vacations were to visit family, but I did grow up in OC so Disneyland could be accessed with a pass very easy when I was a kid. Most everyone in the area I knew had some form of a pass because it was so easy to get to (and back then, wasn't near as expensive as it is today).

QUOTE (LDF @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:48 AM) that is kind of a misnomer.... in the nba, the teams can go over the cap and get penalize according to a league approve penalty. hockey has a hard cap. It is still a cap. And while you can go over, that has a lot to do with bird rights, etc.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:33 AM) Danks and Melky is enough. That's 25% of our payroll for 2016 already down the drain. How much have we complained about Danks's contract being in the way the last 2 years? We now have 2 of those for 2016. Meanwhile...the guys we have who are currently "really cheap" start being less cheap. We start feeling that next year as Sale, Quintana, Abreu, get more expensive. In 2017 that trend continues. We've already got $70 million committed for 2017. But you can't just look at that side. We have Sale / Q / Abreu in 2016 who more then off-set that based upon their production. And 2016 is 1 year, I'd be concerned if we had 3 to 4 years or something like that. We are 1 year from that being removed and when you are 1 year away it is also easier to move at least a portion of that burden to another club (maybe not much, but 10% is possible). And like I've said, I can't fully put Melky in Danks range. Danks is a pure sunk cost. Melky is 2.5 months into the season and has gotten awful luck. Not saying he should be hitting .300 and being great, but his performance is better then the stats indicate and I would be stunned if these past 2 months were the player we will get the next 3 years. Not saying he'll ultimately be worth the contract but he isn't going to accumulate this negative WAR the entire contract. At least not at this stage in the process can I personally assess / come to that conclusion.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:31 AM) The White Sox have been way more patient with their young players than Soxtalk would like. Beckham? Viciedo? Seriously? Interestingly enough, they have not been very patient with their young 2B this year. I don't know how they could have handed the 2B job to Micah without understanding the defensive mistakes he'd make and growing pains that would come. I presume the answer probably lies with, they thought they could overcome that in other areas and didn't realize how many other guys would stink, etc, that they had to make the panic move and that was the only panic move they could even try.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:24 AM) I don't know what the Royals broadcast situation is, but at this point they're massively outdrawing us and massively outdoing us on interest. I very much disagree with us being in as good of a position as the Twins. The fact that they're already competitive this early, before the bulk of the talent they've built up arrives...should terrify us. I probably agree about the Indians being as ****ed as us, they probably have a slightly better system but still weak and that's not something worth bragging about. They're similarly stuck with bad contracts for veterans and don't really have an obvious path to getting better in the next couple years without doing something drastic. I continue to point out that our bad contracts for vets really consists of 2 players and given the better contracts we have, they ultimately negate each other (if not move us still to being in a positive position from a standpoint of "wasted" money): 1. John Danks (closer and closer to being gone) 2. Melky (still too early to fully write-off) On the counter, we have 2 to 3 of the better contracts in baseball (which helps to off-set) 1. Sale 2. Q 3. Abreu Note: I do not think Roberton's contract is a bad one (little upside to be a great one but if we wantd to trade him, someone would take him and that contract from us based upon his current production). Similarly, I don't think the LaRoche contract is a terrible one either. Hard for 2 year deal to set you back and LaRoche is notorious 2nd half player (and his OPS compared to historical norms through this part of the season is nothing to snide about). I also won't get worked up about contracts like Duke or others. If it is I won't discuss Ramirez / Shark as it has no impact going forward at this point.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 10:02 AM) To be fair though, the organization has not made much of an attempt to develop many hitters in the darft since 2010 here are the positions drafted in the first 5 rounds: 2015 - 3 Pitchers 2014 - 4 Pitchers - 1 Catcher (Austin) 2013 - 3 Pitchers - 1 SS (Anderson #1), 1 OF (May #13) 2012 - 2 Pitchers - 1 OF (Hawkins #8), 1 1B (Barnum #27), 1 2B (DeMichele), 1 SS Nick Basto 2011 - 4 Pitchers - 1 OF (Walker) 2010 - 5 Pitchers - 1 1B (Wilkins) So 21 pitchers and 9 position players drafted in that time span. Of the trades that have been made, the prospects that they have acquired have been: Samardzjia trade - 1 pitching prospect Gordon Beckham trade - 1 pitching prospect ADA trade - acquired 2 pitching prospects Adam Dunn trade - acquired 1 pitching prospect Jake Peavy trade - acquired 2 pitching prospects, 1 SS (Rondon #12) Jesse Crain trade - 1 pitching prospect, 1 3B prospect (Kline) Matt Thorntom trade - 1 OF prospect (Jacobs) Addison Reed trade - 1 3B prospect (Davidson #9) Jason Frasor trade - 2 pitching prospects Ozzie Guillen trade - 2 pitching prospects , 1 SS prospect (Martinez) Carlos Quentin trade - 2 pitching prospects Sergio Santos trade - 1 pitching prospect Scott Linebrink trade - 1 pitching prospect Thats 16 pitchers and 5 position players in trades in that time as well (not including ML ready players and spring training filler trades - true prospects) In all the Sox have added 37 pitchers to only 14 position players in the last five years in the top of draft or in trades. Of the 14 hitting prospects acquired - Kline, Wilkins, Jacobs, and Martinez are out of the org 6 of the remaining 10 are in the top 30 prospects. Yes guys like Walker and Barnum have been busts but they have made up for it by drafting guys like Michalzeski, Semien, and Johnson in the later rounds. Jake Peavy trade was Rondon, 2 pitching prospects, and the centerpiece (Garcia). So technically 2 position prospects and 2 pitching prospects. Very good trade. We also have made plenty of 1st round position selections (or 2nd round) with Walker / Trayce Thompson / Mitchell / Beck's / Barnum / Hawkins / Tim Anderson.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:20 AM) Which is exactly the logic where I've followed to reach the point that I'm ready to trade one of our top 2 lefties. I am open to trading. I'd probably prefer to move Q then Sale but it does all depend on the package. I think Dodgers are team that could offer a package that made sense. Doesn't mean they will though. I suppose Rays / Priates could as well.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:15 AM) I know, i know, derailment. I have to. It's hard to trend upward that much when you have the 2nd best record in baseball. He was projecting into the future though. I think the Royals are a strong team and respect everything they do, but I don't see them as some unbeatable juggernaut with tons of talent coming to make them better. No one knows what will happen but no reason other teams can't contend with them. Very good team though and Caufield points out Twins / Indians as teams to be most scared of. I have little concern over Tigers (long term...this year, yeah, still relevant, but long term, they are a mess) and still think we are in as good a spot as Twins / Indians going forward (if not better). Royals are better then us, but we have benefit of larger market and potential to increase payroll (unless Royals decide to play at our level which is always possible).

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:09 AM) Gillaspie and Abreu are not "worse defensively" than they were last season. They're actually better than they were last year per UZR. Flowers is worse and LaRoche doesn't play 1b much. Those guys have actually gotten a bit better defensively, but "a bit better than terrible" is still pretty weak. I discount 1B defense so I won't talk about it as much (or focus on it, plus hell with it, Abreu's bat completely outweighs any negatives at 1B). When you look at the opening day lineup you had awful defenders at 4 positions (3B / 2B / RF / LF) and a below average defender at 1B. You then had an above avg defender in CF, an avg to slightly above avg defender at SS, and an avg defender at C. Now you take bats into the equation and look at those awful defenders and almost none of them (except probably Melky) were what you'd consider safe projections for their offense to outproduce negative defensive value. Add in Flowers, who while an AVG defensive catcher is a below avg bat, and that is a heck of a lot of players who have what I'd consider overall "negative" value. Bright side is most of those guys were "cheap", and two had potential upside (Micah / Avi), but any way you slice it, it is bad. Downside is, the one expensive player, Melky (and I won't really say expensive but obviously pricey in comparison) has also been a negative player (small sample size though with a positive 3 year arch though so I still am not writing him off). So, good news is, money isn't tied up to crappy players, downside is our farm talent is in the pitching crops so we have to get creative / find other ways for new position players.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:05 AM) You're finally coming around. The problem is getting one or both of Garcia away from the outfield and to 1B/DH, but you STILL have to keep one of them in LF/RF, even if you do end up trading LaRoche this mid-year or in the off-season (which is still looking quite unlikely because Hahn would be basically admitting defeat for next year as well). Looking at internal solutions, the best defenders are probably Thompson, Sanchez and C. Rondon, and most scouts are dubious about their ability to hit consistently and get on base enough to justify their defense. What sucks is all four AL Central teams...you can examine their major and minor league rosters, see their strategy/plan and understand that they have bright/er futures than the Sox, especially the Twins and probably the Royals as well. In the process of focusing so much on beating the Tigers, they just got old...but we've gotten out-GM'ed by everyone in the division for the last five years. We've seen Viciedo play better than expected in 2012, Eaton in 2014, Avi in 2015...but then it turned out to be unsustainable either offensively, defensively or both. How do you explain that? Ramirez, we can surmise he just got older (and is older than his birth certificate)...but even guys like Flowers, Gillaspie, LaRoche and Abreu are all worse defensively than last season...it's an endemic affecting every single player on the roster other than Beckham and Sanchez, and neither of them can hit. Our two most promising hitting prospects, Anderson and Hawkins...neither one of those guys projects as being above-average (defensively) at the next level. They've gotten wonderfully fortunate with Rodon and Fulmer falling into their laps, too. Some things have gone well. Perhaps the scariest thing to me is how HEALTHY we've been, all things considered, this season. We can look at the teams like the Rays, Rangers and Cardinals playing well despite replacing 2-4 starters at the major league level because of their strong systems and can't begin to imagine what our record (or future) would be if we had an injury to Sale, Quintana, Rodon or Fulmer...or Abreu, for that matter. Finally coming around? No one was more adamant then me all off-season. And I also completely disagree with you in the fact that all other teams have brighter futures then the White Sox. I think the Tigers future is horrific and I don't see the Royals continuing to trend upward. Twins and Indians have prospects but we have young stars to build around. I think the Sox made mistakes but they are still in a position where you can pivot and improve. Tough moves are going to have to be made and you will have to win some trades but somehow they are going to have to get some young, athletic, position talent capable of playing / ready to play at the major league level.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 10:11 AM) Q has the best two way center in the game today, and the best D man in the game today. He also has two other guys who are probably Hall of Famers, and they are doing it during the salary cap era. That is without getting into just the regular old star players. Bulls did everything in a salary cap era. Bulls teams had 3 HOF with in the post-season a roster that really only went 8 or 9 deep (and that is stretching it given the minutes the starters would log in the NBA in 90's). That is 33% of your roster being HOF'er with 1 the greatest rebounder over, 1 the greatest of all time, and the other a guy who was pretty much the best player in the league when Jordan was out (and the best defensive player in that era....along with Jordan who was incredible as well).

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 09:20 AM) That player did however have some personal issues, to put it midly, that could have otherwise torn that team apart or made it fairly difficult to keep him on the court. Agree, but raw talent was their and that is a further credit to the coach for getting those personalities to fit in. Either way, while Toews / Kane are two of the best...neither is the greatest ever and as a % of guys played / minutes, your top talent is still far less impactful in NHL vs. hockey.

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:02 AM) Exactly, and trading Sale for prospects could easily turn this into a worse debacle. As a comment I saw on reddit stated: "I'd rather have a guaranteed yearly Cy Young candidate than gamble on 5 top prospects - which could yield f***-all and could realistically end up yielding a group that develops into a decent position player, a 4th starter, a solid reliever and a 4th OF - a nice package but hardly worth a guy like Sale." Why not a combination of young players with upside (with MLB success) and top prospects. Like I mentioned, a package built around Puig and top prospects could be extremely tantalizing. I presume Dodgers would not want to give up Puig plus 2 top prospects and I wouldn't blame them, but they have the outfield depth and a rotation with Kershaw / Greinke / Sale would be ludicrous when healthy.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 17, 2015 -> 08:22 PM) Everyone on the Score was talking about trading SAle today. They are all so misinformed.. There are a handful of teams that could even get it done and those teams wouldn't give what would be required. Such a dumb topic. It'd be like the biggest haul in history with the contract he has. A package built around Russell and Schwarber would be an extremely tantalizing starting point. However, Dodgers could offer the best package (if they wanted). A package built around Puig, Seager, Urias and Guerrero would be a total homerun. Presume Dodgers wouldn't do it, but I'd be all over it.

I feel like anytime Hahn has spoken, changes were made. I can't imagine this is the last change. I presume we will move Sanchez but I still get really irritated at the impatience our front office has with young players. If we were to have Micah start the year, we should have known that he'd have defensive lapses, etc, and been ready to deal with it and work through his development. We weren't and got overly impatient then turned to the next savior (who was on fire for so long that no matter what he was due for a poor stretch and clearly he's struggled) but again, I feel like their is no vision in our moves and how we run things. Maybe I'm overthinking but this organization just keeps going downhill. I got excited about Melky and that was my mistake but I also kept talking about how with someone like Avi and with our team D, we had to be aware of our defensive limitations and make sure whomever we brought in for the other OF spot had to be a good defender (unless of course we were going to have room at DH and that went out of the equation as soon as we signed LaRoche). When we signed Melky, we became stuck with two awful defensive outfielders to go along with an awful 2B (Micah is an awful defender at this point...not saying he will be forever, but his D was raw and bad and no one should be surprised with that or had expected anything else), an older Ramirez, and Connor who is a total butcher (and has been pretty much his entire career at 3B). I don't get as worked up over 1st, because its first, but we basically had one plus defender in Eaton (and you could have argued to start the season Ramirez being slightly above avg...but we've all talked about his age, etc, and potential declines their). That is freaking terrible. Oh and did I mention, a lot of those guys that were bad defenders, weren't well above average hitters either? Recipe for disaster. One thing if you are a bad defensive team with a good offense...another thing when you built your team around pitching and have a lousy offense to also have a lousy defense. I realize hindsight is 20/20 but it is just alarming short-sited and poor. I should have stuck more to my guns in the off-season at how stupid this franchise was for continuing to ignore defense but I do admit, I got caught up in the hoopla with the Melkman thinking he'd hit well enough to off-set that defense. By the way, all this said, we still have the horses in the rotation and star power on our 25 man roster, which is why their is still hope, but it is going to be difficult without being able to acquire young position talent (along with moving some of our guys) both in terms of a Shark trade (hoping we can get other pitchers to develop...thus freeing up cash for position players) as well as trading from our sytsem (and hopefully getting a Tim Anderson / Micah to actually stick...although how the hell that will help team defense is obviously mind boggling at this point). I'd probably say Avi is one of the guys you potentially use in a trade. Sucks cause he's young and cost controlled but with his limited defensive value and struggles to walk, etc, he's going to have a hard time being a very valuable player. Any offensive value is negated by horrific defense and well, we might actually be able to move Avi in a package with someone else for a team looking to buy (that has payroll constraints). Moving someone like Melky would be tougher and I still think Melky will be able to hit and get on base over the longer haul of this contract.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 17, 2015 -> 08:26 PM) I misfired on the Cavs pick, but some of you had to be thinking I was spot on when the Cavs took the lead and were in the ballgame at the half. Those who took GS in six were genuises. Golden State was the far superior team. Nothing genius about picking them. Cavs were a terrible basketball team with one great player.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 07:01 AM) It would be a pretty easy argument to say that Q had more talent than Phil. I disagree. Basketball is a far more individual sport then Hockey. Phil had 2 of the greatest players ever, including the greatest player in NBA history. 40% of his starting lineup were all time greats and during part of the run, a 3rd player, was the greatest rebounder in NBA history (as far as I'm concerned).

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jun 17, 2015 -> 11:18 AM) I've never been there, and I don't have kids, so this could just be out of complete naivety, but the allure of Disney World/Disney Land I've never really gotten. When you were a kid, you never wanted to go to Disneyworld? I remember as a kid I always wanted to do double dare or one of those games and get slimed at Universal (where Nicklodeon did its filming). I actually did get to do like the DoubleDare show at Universal in LA (when our family came to down) and was lucky enough to get picked out of the audience (note...this wasn't a TV show...rather an attraction they had at Universal in LA which was "pretend" version of doubledare and some other attractions. My parents were not happy...I got slimed, which I thought was the coolest thing in the world...however, we had to stay at the park for the rest of the day and all they gave me was a t-shirt and a bucket to try and get the slime off. They weren't fans but I never forgot that experience, haha.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 17, 2015 -> 12:17 PM) Butler age 24 38.7 mpg 25 38.7 mpg M. Jordan age 24 40.4 mpg 25 40.4 mpg 26 39.0 mpg T.Duncan age 24 38.7 mpg age 25 40.6 mpg age 26 39.3 mpg L.James age 21 42.5 mpg 22 40.9 mpg 23 40.4 mpg 24 37.7 mpg 25 39.0 mpg 26 38.8 mpg Thibs "abuse" is really overblown. Even Popovich used Duncan more at the same age. I was about to post this. Lebron has played heavy minutes. Every great player played minutes. I'd argue with games missed that Butler had (due to various minutes). His total minutes played (over full course of season) isn't anywhere near bad. Trading and dumping our best player on a team that is a title contender (I realize all of you are negative nancy's but the Bulls are widely considered a contender by insiders / analysts all around) is just insane. This isn't a team with its stars who are aging or past their peak either. Do we have some guys on the wrong side of 30, sure, but we also have some of our best players on the right side of 30 and some young talented guys who we expect to see develop further. This is a very good team. Their aren't many rosters in the league that I would trade with the Bulls, that is for sure.

FYI - Butler pretty much can't sign a really short term deal with anyone. He can either take about 4.5M and bet on himself (regular qualifying offer) or he'll have to take at least a 3 year deal (as long as Bulls give him the max qualifying offer) not including opt outs (opt out can begin after the 3rd year). So basically Jimmy either takes a 1 yr deal and goes back at this (obviously possible but pretty risky to leave that sort of money on the table for yet another season). http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/23823...ualifying-Offer

QUOTE (LDF @ Jun 17, 2015 -> 11:01 AM) i would really enjoy him to end his career as a bull. but if the cause is lost, i am thinking lets get something from him now. What. Trading Jimmy Butler, a young superstar, would be the dumbest thing we could do. Unless of course it gets you Durant or a better superstar. That isn't happening. Jimmy Butler is a player you build your franchise around and while none of us know how good he can get or if this year is a fluke, right now, doing anything that costs us him, would be horrible for the Bulls. We have multiple all stars and to be frank, should be more optimistic about Rose then we ever have been. Rose with a normal off-season should be a better player. This team could even potentially land a Marc Gasol / Aldridge / Klove if things went perfect. Not saying it would happen but blowing up is just a downright silly idea.

QUOTE (LDF @ Jun 17, 2015 -> 10:45 AM) then trade him tomorrow to the la lakers.... fvvck this, the team needs to rebuild anyway with the coaching staff. lets make the transition easy. Why does this team need to rebuild. It was the 2nd best team in the East (Atlanta is not better) and they were some role players stepping up from being a title team despite missing Pau. Yes, Cleveland also had injuries but Bulls didn't have much time to gel. They had Noah on one leg, etc. This team can win. Watching Golden State in the process further cemented that fact pattern as well (cause they weren't that impressive).

QUOTE (Harry Chappas @ Jun 17, 2015 -> 10:20 AM) How Buddy Bell and Vince Coleman keep their jobs is beyond me. Also Todd Steverson was brought in to change the organizational hitting philosophy. It is worse now than ever. Hell he even has an assistant in Harold Baines. We hear Mark Parent and Joe McEwing will be mangers some day. I really do not see how this is even possible the White Sox show know signs of any time of in game organizational philosophy that makes me think, yes they have it going. I remember back when Joe Nossek was there and he could steal the other teams signs often. I think it is hard to say what Steverson's impact to the organizational hitting philosophy is after just a year and a half. With Buddy Bell, I think we have finally seen a long enough era that he sucks as what he does. We've seen absolutely zilch from a position player development side. That isn't to say it is solely because of Bell (could be scouting / drafting wrong players / etc) but reality is our player development on the position side stinks.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 17, 2015 -> 10:30 AM) Really? Can you back that up with a reference? Because my memory says that they werne't going to go the full max on him and that's why he didn't get an extension done, he was "betting on himself" to be able to get that max deal. Depends on what source you go by. I've read some stuff on real gm and KC that indicated Bulls eventually made last ditch max offer (which is still less then what is here). Cowley reported the max offer Bulls made was 4 / 40 and Bulls and Jimmy were 2.5M apart. Not sure what the truth is. I did also find an earlier article from KC mentioning a difference of about 2M, which in hindsight is awful cause this will cost a lot more. No one expected Jimmy Buckets to be this good this fast, but I did expect him to be a better player then he was two years ago and at that point, he was already a guy worthy of a 10M offer (Given that Alex Burks got that much money).