Chisoxfn

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jun 9, 2011 -> 10:25 AM) I agree that the hyperbole is terrible. However, in reply to your bolded... Juan Pierre if "just slower" is no longer a starting major league ballplayer. His ability to steal a lot of bases at a 75%+ clip, and cover ground in the OF with his speed, are not pieces of his game he can do without. Without them he's just not good enough. To me the question is how much "slower" is he and I don't personally know that answer. Part of him getting thrown out could just be him having a flaw in his technique when it comes to getting good jumps and part of that is about confidence. The more he "thinks" about something, the slower he might appear. As long as he has above average speed, he should be a solid player. When that skill isn't there, than I think it is time that he is reduced to more of a bench role. I personally don't know if I've seen enough to say he doesn't have the speed anymore to be effective or if it is more of a mental thing as of this point. Kind of like how fathom points out that part of his problems in defense seem to be his “timidness”. I don’t know the answer because I’m not around Pierre enough to see first-hand the difference in his actual skills (e.g., his practice, the time it takes him to get from 1st to 2nd, etc). The eye test isn’t pretty to date, but as I pointed out above, part of that could be due to practice or a slump. The longer it goes though, the more you think it isn’t a slump anymore.

He was a 2 way player at Michigan right? Or was that his brother?

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jun 9, 2011 -> 10:18 AM) Dunn and Rios are still in their prime, Pierre's been thought of as a regressing player for a while now. There's still a good chance Rios and Dunn bounce back, especially Dunn. But there's the age/physical hurdle for Pierre to overcome. If I was going to bet on any of the 3 players to bounce back, it be rios. He's so talented and still physically there. The problem is, he's in such a funk and mechanically I think he needs to make an adjustment to that swing. Dunn is out of shape and has a slow bat thus far and Pierre is pretty much him (just slower). That said, I still think Dunn could turn things around to (or I sure as heck hope he can). My hatred of him probably makes me more biased though. I'm just trying to point out to you guys that talking in these crazy absolutely is detrimental to the overall quality of the board. I get that Pierre isn't ideal, I really do. But I have to respond when I see some of the stuff getting thrown around in here. If a good chunk of Soxtalk ran everything, every player would get cut within a week of making the roster since as soon as something bad happens, they are immediately the worst of all time at this or that, etc. It just isn't true. Baseball is a long season and you fail a lot more than you suceed and intangibles and other factors not measured directly by some of the new power stat (like OBP/OPS/WAR/etc) do exist. And sometimes you just have to ride out guys slumps because they have proven they are capable major leaguers (no, they aren't all all stars and we'd love to have better guys at different spots) but you just have to be patient and hope it is just a slump. Think about how Boston has ridden out some of Big Papi's slumps. Just my 2 cents.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 9, 2011 -> 10:10 AM) This is where I've got to disagree with you Jas. You may be hard pressed to believe that in one year Juan Pierre's defense has completely fallen off the table, but it has. He had a couple week stretch where he didn't cost us a game in May, but even when that was going on there were several misplayed/adventures out there where he barely recovered on balls that last year's Pierre would have gotten to easily. 2010 Pierre would have made last night's catch while pulling up at the end, with room to spare. He's playing like 2006 Podsednik out there. He is getting poor jumps, taking bad routes to balls, and when he's close to a difficult catch it bounces off his glove. And I said, he's playing below average. But guys have had slumps before and it is pretty crazy to me that a guy could have just "lost" it that quick defensively. I don't know what it is, and maybe it is a physical thing where as he's gotten older he's lost some vision or doesn't see as well at night or loses depth perception. I agree that he's struggled, but I also don't see much better of an alternative right now. If we really wanted to, I'd be ok with Lilli at the top spot (as I mentioned in the post above this) but I still see Dunn and Rios being far more worthless offensively than Pierre right now (someone will point to me Dunn's OBP but he's been worthless so far). The problem is, right now, Ozzie wants to see these guys improve, if they don't, than I think by the end of June/early July we will see Viciedo get his chance. Until than, I don't have a problem with what Ozzie has been doing and I think its why his guys truly like playing for him. This has been Ozzie's best season as manager, imo.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jun 9, 2011 -> 09:59 AM) I thought Pierre was fine last year. He provided defense, good base running, and an okay OBP for a leadoff hitter. But this year is a completely different story. He's costing the team on defense (by almost all statistical measures and by the screw-ups everyone has seen), he's incredibly inefficient on the base paths, and his hitting is what I expected it to be. If you add all of those things up, it equals negative contribution. When you have Viciedo mashing in the minors and Brent Lillibridge hitting like Jose Bautista every now and then, there's no reason for Pierre to touch the starting lineup. I know it is hard to believe that a player can regress as much as Pierre has at base running and fielding in just one year, but it's not totally abnormal for guys like him to regress heavily. He's actually made it pretty far for a guy who relies on speed and speed alone. What about when you have Dunn hitting like garbage or Rios being worthless. Pierre has at least hit and done a decent job of that over the past month and defensively outside of maybe yesterday's play (which wasn't near the gaffe that some of you make it out to be, imo), he's been improved. He was really bad that first month of the seaosn, but since than he's been better. Still, his lack of efficient base-stealing is costly and it is why I would prefer a better alternative and I honestly think I would have Lillibridge leading off for this club right now. However, that is a big risk. Maybe we put too much pressure on Lilli and he regresses and we lose out on what could be a guy turning into a solid everyday player (who is playing some insanely awesome defense).

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 9, 2011 -> 06:33 AM) This is purely my feeling, but I think we are seeing the effects of a $125 million payroll on drafting. I think we really went cheap because of all of the money we are spending at the major league level. And that is a short-sighted way for an organization to operate because truth be told, spending more on drafts, actually better enables you to manage your major league payroll and thus save you money down the road. It is my biggest problem with the organization under Kenny. I actually like our scouts and baseball people and I think we will see in a couple years that Buddy has done a good job overhauling player development (plus as I've mentioned many times, I think we do a tremendous jobs with pitchers in our organization already). The problem is, our budget, just doesn't compare to other teams budgets. I team with a $120M payroll should spend on average of $1-$3M bucks in bonuses to a copule non-draftable guys (e.g., the international FA's on a yearly basis) as a way to supplement for the lack of top round picks. They should also budget some additional money to take a couple over-slot guys, again, as a way to supplement not having top 10 to 15 picks year in year out.

QUOTE (danman31 @ Jun 9, 2011 -> 12:23 AM) And/or in scouting as well. I'm sure there's a reason. There's no way 30+ rounds with no high schoolers is a coincidence. Could very well be that the Sox feel that by taking a lot of college guys you have better odds of hitting on a multitude of guys and you can eventually spin them for what you want. Plus if teams were overvaluing high school guys in this years draft you could end up with better overall value picking the college guys. I don't think anyone in baseball, regardless of the club, is lazy when it comes to player development. Some are just far better at it than others. And I actually like the fact that the White Sox primarily hire "baseball" scouts versus applying this statistical nonsense on the draft. I think the statistical purposes serve better value at the major league level than say the low minor league and amateur ranks.

QUOTE (danman31 @ Jun 8, 2011 -> 10:14 PM) The draft reviews will start to flow tomorrow. Honestly, I think this could be a very deep draft class for the Sox. They picked a lot of college guys that put up solid enough numbers to do well in the low minors. Hopefully a few of those guys can make the leap into being a legitimate prospect. I'm going to need some convincing on the Johnson pick, but the Soptic pick sounds good and I love the Gardeck pick in the 8th if they can sign him. Gardeck and Johnson are two of my favorite picks and I'm warming to Walker. Being a guy who loves what speed can do for a baseball club I love the idea of the possibility of Walker panning out and just being wreaking havoc on oppositions for years to come. I get what you are saying about the collegiate guys but the thing that dissapoints me is it seems like we took a ton of relievers and while I don't know the ultimate plan for these guys there were a lot of picks that kind of had me scracthing my head (mainly because I tend to prefer a certain type of player). However, if the Sox can sign 1 or 2 guys late that should have went earlier, things would warm up for me. I also think our organization has actually done a decent job finding later round talent the past couple years (see: Hudson, Dex Carter, Brandon Allen, Aaron Cunningham, Clayton Richard, Chris Young, etc). I mention all of those guys because regardless of what they ultimately turned/turn into at the major league level (or in Dex's case how he fell apart eventually, but he still turned into great value for the Sox), they all had pretty solid trade value for guys we ended up developing a little later on (some were picked early in the top 5 rounds, others a little later). Kind of like what I thought Mitchell would end up doing and still hope he might eventually do (Mitchell with more power potential though). But you know what, I can't fault things from an injury perspective.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jun 9, 2011 -> 09:40 AM) Which team would want a .260 hitting corner outfielder with a slugging percentage 30 points lower than his on base percentage who can't field, can't steal bases, and is in his mid-30s already? No sane team would want him just for the hell of it, it'd be out of necessity, even if it's for the league minimum. There are far worse role players out there. In the NL, I'd love to at worse, have a guy like Pierre on my bench. I cna pinch run for him and even if he isn't the same base stealer he once was, he's still an above average base runner that would be of great use in a late game situation. I could also use him as a pinch-hitter to start off an inning or as a pinch-bunter. And I am hard pressed to think that in just one year his defense has completely regressed from being an above average LFer (which he was last year defensively) to utter crap defensively. In fact, while it might not have been a great play yesterday, I didn't have any problem with it and by and large his arm is what sucks about his defense. His range has been fine most of the year (sans his early hiccups). Has he been good in LF, no, he's been below average this season as a whole. But people here love to overreact and talk in pure absolutes. And contrary to the statiticians opinion (IMO), there is value in a guy that can smack hits, even if it is just singles. Singles are still a valuable commodity in the world of baseball and you don't always have to slug. Do I want Pierre back as a starter, no. Would I prefer a different leadoff hitter, absolutely. However, Pierre was solid last year and people still acted like he was the worse left fielder in the game. I get it, a lot of you are going to hate to hate cause its the cool or fun thing to do, but lets not pretend like the Sox are the only team that would have Pierre on there roster and worse yet, that since no one else would pick him up, he's the worse position player in the majors. Sorry, I'm not buying it.

That rumor of the Sox drafting Ozzie's kid this year or promising him they would is complete crap.

You guys are out of your mind if you don't think someone would pick up Juan Pierre if the Sox released him (no they wouldn't take on his contract, but they'd take him at the major league minimum). And no, he wouldn't need to go to the minors either. And that isn't me defending Juan, it is more calling all of you out for making stupid reactionary statements.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 8, 2011 -> 08:47 PM) He sucks. I don't care how nice or how much of an ass someone is...as long as they help the Sox win. Pierre's had an absolutely brutal season this year. I'd rather have him in the lineup than Dunn or Rios right now.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jun 8, 2011 -> 11:56 AM) He primarily played 3B this year. He also played 1B and corner OF spots. He projects as a corner OF or IF, and thus needs to show some power. Ozney Guillen isn't a very good prospect. He was only the 6th best hitter on his team this year. He's a prospect worthy of being picked in the 20 to 40th round range. It doesn't say a whole lot in general when you are getting drafted in that range anyway. No one is arguing that he's some elite prospect, but he's worthy of going in that range. And the 6th best hitter on one of the better JC programs in the country, one who historically has had tons of players drafted off of its roster, is worthy of being picked.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Jun 8, 2011 -> 11:51 AM) Yep. But crappy Indian defense trying to give it back in the 10th. 3-2 Twins, currently. Seriously, the Tribe look bad. I'm rooting harder against Detroit, who IS more of a force with Cabrera surrounded with quality and/or improving bats. That's the only team we'll be chasing soon. Thats cause the Tribe aren't good. I said it all season and it was fact. There was so much smoke and mirrors with that club early on the season, it was pretty easy to predict. That isn't to say they won't hang around, confidence can do wonders, but they aren't near the team the White Sox or Tigers are and it is why when a lot of people were busy jumping off bridges, I stayed relatively patient. And that isn't to say that this White Sox team is perfect, it isn't, but it is pretty good in certain areas, and than other areas there is the potential to be pretty good as well (if Rios and/or Dunn ever show up). The White Sox are bad at executing and doing some of the things necessary to grind out wins and that is why they have had some baffling losses (where when you watch the game you think the score should be one thing, when in reality it is the other) and that can be incredibly frustrating and might bite them in the behind.

I listened to the interview live yesterday. That is a lot of spin and from my initial take I didn't hear anything too alarming from her conversations. She spoke very generally on ocassions but never said anything too indicative of the program, if at all. Some of those quotes aren't even that legit and are taken a bit out of context from what was said in its entirety. This is a whole to do about nothing and I actually was pretty impressed with Colt's wife. She was very poised. Not sure why she called but she was good on the show and it was a great listen to.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jun 8, 2011 -> 11:36 AM) Gregor said the opposite. Kid didn't hit for much of any power and doesn't have a single HR. Probably not going to do well as a corner OF/1B with no power to speak of. Whose projecting Ozzie's kid as a corner OF or 1B? Worse case I thought he was moving to 2B. Ozney's bat has always been the questionmark as people didn't know if he'd develop the power (supposedly he has raw power potential thought) but he did put up a very good average at Miami Dade. The power hasn't showed up but he supposedly projects as an above average defensive outfielder.

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Jun 8, 2011 -> 08:15 AM) I just mean because Vargas sucks, and losing to Pineda or Felix would be nothing to get pissed off about. Vargas might suck historically, but anyone with a sub 4 ERA this far into the season as a starter, isn't exactly crap. Regardless of the periph's.

His curve was nasty last night.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 8, 2011 -> 10:58 AM) Unfortunately, Tex is currently ahead of the fan vote. Everyone on the starting roster, currently, with the exception of Ortiz, Bautista, and Hamilton (who doesn't deserve it) are Yankees.

Last 3 guys are all pretty good prospects. Would be nice if the Sox went aggressive on a couple of them, but its very doubtul. This is usually really late in the game for a major overslot signing.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 8, 2011 -> 07:10 AM) And that's the frustrating part. He tweaked it on the blown double play in the 4th inning, and then after that, he said he couldn't throw the ball where he wanted to. After the Cabrera at bat, that's when he should have pulled himself (and kept us in the game). If he would have done that, I don't think anyone on here would have faulted him for his decision making. Guys. Ozzie said himself that he didn't feel like he had availability in the pen so clearly Peavy was out there trying to see if he could make is way through it. After the inning he said he couldn't. Big deal. He tried to battle through and help the club and I'm pretty sure pitchers have at various points in time had zero control of there stuff and tried to work through it. My guess was Peavy was hoping that it would take a few pitches and it would losen back up and he'd be fine. Didn't happen and right after the inning he told the coaches he couldn't go anymore.

QUOTE (justBLAZE @ Jun 8, 2011 -> 10:38 AM) How did Ozney do in college last year? Quite well in his first year at JC.

Parrent was once a pretty solid prospect. Like that move in the 30th. He struggled for A&M but has some upside (well as far as 30th rounders go).

We are now at the point that I am ok drafting Ozzie's kid.

As soon as I complain, SOx make 2 straight picks I like. Gardeck has a great arm and was one of the best righties in the state of Illinois. Real nice velocity, solid build. I like it. Should have taken more guys like this (more talented obviously) in rounds 3 through 5.