Jordan4life_2007

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 15, 2010 -> 01:20 PM) Aren't they pretty much that with a well rested Roy, Oswalt, and Hamels? Yup.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 15, 2010 -> 02:03 PM) If that is your standard, then you NEVER draft pitching in the first round. There is no such thing as near 100% sure, except maybe a couple of times a decade. Again, look all around baseball, past or present. How many legitimate closers were first round picks? Now if something unexpected happens (i.e. an injury) that forces a guy to the 'pen then that's one thing. But there were questions about Sale's long-term projections before the draft. But I'm not going to make this an issue right now. All signs point to him being given every opportunity to start as early as next year.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Oct 15, 2010 -> 01:52 PM) Just my hopeful dream to get something decent in return for Buehrle's contract. Rasmus is a little more than decent. lol. I'd never say a bad thing about KW again if he pulled that off.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 15, 2010 -> 08:05 AM) I'd like him to be a starter. I just won't call him a "wasted pick" if he ends up as a stud in the pen. Maybe "wasted" was the wrong word to use. But for a system that lacks, well, everything, I don't think it's really good organizational strategy to use a critical first round pick on a guy you're not damn near 100% sure can cut it as a starter. Closers are a dime a dozen these days. It'd be like an NFL team using their first pick on a C.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 14, 2010 -> 09:32 PM) I dunno, if I'm drafting a guy in the 1st round...I really want him to at least be tried as a starter. I want him to be moved to the bullpen because I have 5 reasonably priced guys signed for several years and no where else to put him. How many of the games great closers, past or present, were first round picks? I know Lee Smith was a second round pick. As far as today, Broxton was a 2nd round pick. You just don't draft pitchers with your first round pick unless you're almost 100% sure they're starter caliber.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Oct 14, 2010 -> 06:52 PM) A first round pick that comes up and pretty much dominates a few months after he was drafted is a wasted pick? Bulls***. Even if he ends up a dominant set up guy or closer its never a wasted pick when a guy can contribute this early at this level. Unless we're talking Mariano Rivera clones, I don't want to use critical first round picks on relievers. I don't care how good they are. Especially in our current position.

QUOTE (Fantl916 @ Oct 14, 2010 -> 06:24 PM) I'm not really a fan of us going after a 2b. Beckham needs to be there for the long haul as his bat plays like an All Star there... moving Gordan back to 3b makes his bat play simply ok for his position. I'm still open to going after Luke Scott for a lefty run producer. He can play 1b/Of/DH. See if we can get Figgins for 3b (Dayan straight up?). Bat Figgins and Pierre #1-2. I know people dont like this idea but we've had bad #2 batters since Iguchi left and Figgins plays really good defense. Then we can use Morel as bait for some pitching help I agree completely. If Beckham fails then it's official: we're cursed as far as homegrown talent goes. He was supposed to be the closest to a sure thing we've had since Hurt. And I still believe in him. He's as critical to the long-term success of this franchise as anybody.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 14, 2010 -> 05:42 PM) My opinion based on history is that one of the starting pitchers gets dealt to fill holes. I think 3B is filled by Morel. The rest we will see. Fair enough. At least it seems you're semi admitting that KW and his staff have a major challenge ahead of them this offseason.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 14, 2010 -> 05:51 PM) Pencil it in all you want. We'll see what happens. As I said before Dunn is the better hitter, but its really not by as much as you think. Maybe he will continue to put up the splits you suggest, maybe not. Thome did and was hated, not worth bringing back for $1.5 million. People will be doing cartwheels if the Sox signed Dunn for $15 million a year. IMO, its a collossal waste of money. Their production is pretty similar per 162, even with Quentin only having one big year. I wouldn't. Not at 15 million a year. Not with all the other financial obligations we have. I agree with you there. But Dunn is and has been one of the premier sluggers in baseball for the last 7 years.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 14, 2010 -> 05:30 PM) Yes but hits, regardless of what some sab guys will tell you are different from walks. What Dunn gives you is the same amount of hits as Quentin. He just walks 3 times a month more, so really no RBI chance without the bases being loaded. Plus, Dunn doesn't run very well anymore, so those 3 walks a month really doesn't add all that much considering you're talking an extra 100 strikeouts per season.You made it seem like they are nowhere near close. I disagree, and think the difference in salaries would make me think Quentin plus $10 million in other players is a significantly better option. I don't get where you're coming from. You're seriously comparing Dunn's resume with Quentin's? You can pretty much pencil in Dunn at .250/40/100/.380/.520/.900 and not think twice about it. CQ has one great year to his credit. It's not close.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Oct 14, 2010 -> 05:09 PM) The Sox have filtered in controllable talent. Paul Konerko, Gordon Beckham, Alexei Ramirez, CQ, Mark Buerhle, Gavin Floyd, Matt Thornton, Bobby Jenks Almost a 1/3 of their roster was brought in cheaply. The problem is that if you bring in cheap guys who are good, they dont stay cheap forever. Its the problem with being successful, people want more money. There are 4 teams left in the playoffs shockingly 3 of the 4 have payrolls near $100mil or far in excess. Konerko? Buehrle? You're grasping at straws with those two. Bobby Jenks was five years ago. Thornton was 4 years ago. I'll give you the other 3. But that's not enough. What do we have currently? Next to nothing outside of Sale, who I'm not sold on if he can be a starter, if not, he was a wasted pick. You gotta keep the pipeline flowing. And yes, they don't stay cheap forever. But their dirt cheap for three years and relatively cheap for another 3. That's a pretty big deal. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 14, 2010 -> 05:10 PM) I'm not familiar with all teams in detail, but I can't imagine not being able to do the same sorts of things with teams in the same payroll range. And to be fair, once you takeaway the free agents, this isn't a $100 million team anymore. I think it was something more like $80 to $85 million IIRC. 80-85 million sounds about right. So tell me, do you feel will be able to legitimately fill 1B, C, DH and 3B and dish out arbitration raises with 10-15 million? I know I don't. It'd be different if we had legitimate in-house replacements. But Danks and Flowers have completely fallen of the prospect map. I'm still not sold on Morel's bat (though I love the glove). I do like Viciedo. But this is going to be one interesting offseason. If KW and company can pull a horseshoe out their asses, I'll be the first to stand up (not literally) and give them their props. I just don't see it.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 14, 2010 -> 04:51 PM) I keep hearing this, but how many complete $100 million teams are out there? How do you define complete? I'm not asking for a perfect 25-man roster. But when I see a team that at the moment has no 1B, C, DH, 3B, 4 arbitration eligible players and horrid contracts like Linebrink and Teahen, I think it's safe to say this this team is not allocating their funds real well.

QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Oct 14, 2010 -> 04:19 PM) i personally love juan, if the man could take a walk hed be an all star..... interesting stat, hes tied for 16th in the league in hits with derek jeter, who had 12 more at bats. that coupled with the base stealing im all for some JP. Please don't ever put Juan Pierre in the same sentence as Derek Jeter ever again in your natural life.

QUOTE (gatnom @ Oct 14, 2010 -> 04:29 PM) I know this is going to come off a little harsh, but do you plan on backing up any of these claims? How do you know what the rest of the league thought of him? How do you know the nationals wouldn't have wanted him in a deal for Dunn? Couldn't it be possible that the Diamondbacks just didn't like our prospects, but KW wanted his guy so he sold low anyways? He isn't infallible. Also, Hudson doesn't need to be as good as he was this season to tremendously outvalue Jackson. A dirt cheap middle of the rotation starter has quite a bit of value. Preach. I don't know how many times it has to be said. It's not about Hudson becoming the next Strasburg. The game has changed. It's not about how much you spend, but how you allocate what you spend. We have way too many holes on this roster for a $100 million dollar payroll. I've never said I wanted a Baseball America all-star team. But until this organization realizes that you have to be able to filter in some cheap/controllable talent from within onto the ML roster, will continue to lag behind the the elite teams in the AL.

QUOTE (balfanman @ Oct 14, 2010 -> 03:03 PM) Let me first state that overall I'm still all for the Jackson trade; at least we went for it. That being said, my point has to do with the bolded part above. I know that for the most over the last many years the A. L. has been much more dominant than the N. L. However, over the last year or so hasn't the N. L. caught up with the A L. as far as overall talent? There seems to be some pretty good pitching and hitting going on in the N L. lately. Other than the D.H., which most A. L. teams have (other than the Sox), is it really that much tougher to pitch in the A. L. anymore? The pitching is every bit as good, if not better, than in the AL. Lineups are typically better 7-9 in the AL compared to the NL. That's the main difference. But some act like the difference between the AL and NL is the difference between AA and the majors. It's gotten really annoying and has pretty much become a crutch for fans of AL teams to use to pigeon hole NL players.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Oct 14, 2010 -> 10:13 AM) The Dodgers rushed him and then gave up on him. The Rays had confidence and Jackson improved tremendously under them, but it made no sense to pay Jackson through the arb system when they had so much top-level pitching coming up the pipeline (an extremely uncommon situation in MLB BTW). The Tigers got him and Jackson continued to get better there as well, but the Tigers were up to their necks in bad contracts and had to cut salary somewhere, so they traded him and Granderson since they couldn't just dump Magglio, Robertson, Bonderman, etc. on anyone. Jackson got better and better until his first half in AZ, and then they went into salary destructo mode and were still able to trade him for a big return after giving up a lot to get him in the first place I don't think confidence is really the issue here. It's very rare to see the type of young pitching depth the Rays have and had at the time, and then the other two deals were made when ownership mandated a cut in payroll. Saying Jackson was moved because of a lack of confidence is just an assumption, however we know KW was shot down on several Hudson deals because a lot of other evaluators didn't think the ceiling was there. Ceiling was never a question with Jackson. The Dodgers drafted him in '01 and he didn't make his ML debut until 2003. So I don't know how you can say they "rushed" him. Now they probably gave up on him too quickly, as he only pitched 75.1 innings for them (a 5.50 ERA during that time), but they certainly didn't rush him. Your reasoning for the Tigers trading him makes no sense because the same off-season that the Tigers were supposedly shedding payroll they added $15 million in Damon/Valverde. The Rays? I can buy the surplus explanation. Although it's not like he did much while he was there. And then he obviously sucked with Arizona. So there's really no way to spin the fact that this supposed great talent with all this potential has been traded 4 times in the last 4 years into a positive. And what deals do we "know" involved Hudson were shot down by other teams? You've said this more than once yet haven't provided anything to support this. So let's ignore the fact that Aardsma has a 2.90 ERA, 9.6 K/9 and 144 era+ the last two years? He's certainly not elite. But considering he's made just over 3 million the last two years, I'd say the Mariners have gotten pretty good value. How about Nick Masset? All he's done the last two years is post a 2.89 ERA, 9.1 K/9 and an ERA+ of 142. And I'm shocked you of all people haven't mentioned the complete bust that has been Tony Pena. Don Cooper is getting pretty overrated. He's good but the hype is ridiculous. We basically got a year and a half of dominant pitching from Contreras. A failed reliever that's turned elite (give him big props there). And Gavin Floyd. Not saying that's nothing. But he's not the messiah of pitching coaches, either.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Oct 14, 2010 -> 01:24 PM) A .034 OBP is the difference between a bad hitter and a mediocre hitter and a mediocre hitter and a good hitter. I can go on and on. Point being, that is a pretty big difference. Plus, you totally forgot to mention slugging percentage, which is at .521 for Dunn in comparison to Quentin's .488. Point being, Quentin may have the potential to be better than Dunn, but he's only shown it once and in spurts. He also has a injury issue and is incredibly inconsistent. Compare that to Dunn, who has been producing at a very good and stable rate for most of the past decade and you really don't have much of a comparison. Adam Dunn has averaged 40 HRs and 101 RBIs the last 7 years. A slash line of .253/.381/.533/.914 during those same 7 years. He's one of the surest things in baseball. CQ has one great year on his resume. There's no comparison.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 14, 2010 -> 01:56 AM) I kind of agree with this. Bat him ninth and I wouldn't be so against him I guess. I wonder why I devalue a guy with 70 SBs so much. I just don't like him much. You don't like him that much because he's not that good (and he wasn't on the '05 team). It's a damn shame that I had to pimp his .350 OBP like it was something special, because I didn't think there was a chance in hell he would sniff that number. I see his final OBP was .341. And I still have to give him credit because I though anything over .330 would've been a miracle. His value this year came mostly from his stellar defense. Which was aided by a smaller ballpark.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Oct 14, 2010 -> 02:12 AM) This is a confusing negative when you're comparing him to a pitcher who's on his 5th team in 8 years; 3 of which featured only 19 total outings. It's pretty f***ing useless. "Hudson is doing well in the NL with no pressure." But of course let's ignore the fact that Jackson failed miserably in the same environment.

QUOTE (Special K @ Oct 13, 2010 -> 06:01 PM) What's with you and clever quips? You offer nothing to support your arguments. I never said Jackson had unlimited upside, just that he had more upside. Plenty of guys bounce around teams before they get it together... Thornton, Jenks, Josh Hamilton, even Floyd could be tossed into that category. All I gotta say is that Jackson has been an all star, and if were lucky regain that form. I don't see Hudson getting to that point, and guess what, the Sox scouts agree. Whatever you say cereal boy.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Oct 13, 2010 -> 05:06 PM) What? Danks/Quentin gets you anything? Have the old Pirates GMs taken over every team in MLB? I was thinking we could give Tampa a ringa ding ding and offer up CQ/Danks for Longoria and Garza. Fair deal if you ask me.

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Oct 13, 2010 -> 04:47 PM) Exactly. People are forgetting about the log-jam at 1B they have. I don't think Votto is as untradeable as ya'll are making him out to be. They need pitching. Despite all of Quentin's issues this year he did put up 26/87/.342. That .342 is pretty remarkable to me considering the season he had. Replacement level my ass. He's got horseloads of value based on results AND potential still. Ok, so say the Reds wanted to cash in on Votto's year, you think they'd rather want unproven Beckham over Danks/Quentin? They would want somebody to mash in Votto's place; that ain't Beckham. The Reds have to trade somebody to get pitching. Alonso doesn't get you near top flight pitching. Votto gets you anything. So does Danks/Quentin I feel. This won't happen, I realize this, but this is the type of player we should be targeting with a Danks-based package. Why are the Reds all of a sudden in need of pitching? Did Cueto, Volquez, Chapman, Wood and Leake all die yesterday? And CQ is exactly replacement level. Results? You don't even need stats/metrics to see he's been BAD for two years. And in the NL where DHing isn't even an option? Yikes.

QUOTE (Brian @ Oct 13, 2010 -> 01:56 PM) Need 7 more teams for our 16 team goal, but if we only get 10, I can switch settings. I got one guy joining for sure. And I think 16 teams is too much by the way. I'm gonna be forced to draft guys like Jamal Magloire. I think 12 teams is perfect. JMO.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Oct 13, 2010 -> 07:44 AM) So, a guy with a 10 year track record, who has made a lot more good deals than bad... and the Teahen extension and Jackson/Hudson trade have caused you to lose all faith? I mean, I agree those were both bad deals, but I also think you are missing the bigger picture in your evaluation. KW's biggest weakness, really, has been his inability to get the farm stronger. There has been some recent improvement in the drafts, but overall, the past 5 or more years, the Sox system has been terrible. And yet, the Sox are an above average organization in terms of success on the field. So its pretty damn obvious that Kenny must be doing better than the average GM (far better at aspects other than prospect development), since he's having to do this without a good farm system. Seems to me, its not time to jump ship on Kenny, at least not yet. Because the odds are very good that whomever you get to replace him will be worse. Both Swisher trades. The Javy trade in which it looks like the only valuable piece we got back was a utility guy. The Brandon Allen for Tony Pena swap? Even Hawk would admit KW is in a massive slump right now.

QUOTE (Leonard Zelig @ Oct 13, 2010 -> 04:14 PM) Do you mean like Cliff Lee? You got me. Jackson=Cliff Lee