Jordan4life_2007

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 2, 2009 -> 03:22 PM) I'm in brazil. Internet sucks. Luckily I've made a habit of saving before I hit submit. How fun and active sports talk would be if we all just deferred to management! I'm not saying people were right, I'm saying looking at trade threads and saying "look at how stupid people are! Williams is always right!" isn't fair to the context of what is happening. Look at the time lapse, when people are commenting it is in the first hour as details are still being hashed out. None of us are 'on the record', we are having a conversation, and are talking it out as the details emerge. The latter 100 pages of a thread are never as extreme as the first thirty. Yes, they are knee jerk reactions, but these are from pretty knowledgeable fans who are caught in the moment, and in this instance - the offseason- after weeks of talking out possibilities, when action happens you get the "what the hell" moments. And through the course of the thread as stats and reports are brought in, money is dished out, you see pretty reasonable explanations. If the news broke at 10 am, and we had a radio show at 6 pm, you really wouldn't be hearing the outrageous claims in question. Message boards are just a mass conversation, and when breaking news happens it can be chaos. And it's pretty ridiculous to hold that against people right now. So why don't people learn from previous experiences? As bad as that thread was, the Brandon Allen trade thread was worse. Fact is you're always going to have fans out there that think they know it all when in reality they don't know half as much as they think they do (and that includes myself).

QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Dec 2, 2009 -> 01:06 PM) John Danks, Hudson, Flowers, Morel for Gonzalez? I'd do it. KW wouldn't. That's all that matters (thank the good lord).

There might not be a way to "handle" Linebrink. He's pitched barely over 100 innings the last two years. What are we gonna do? Try to limit him to around 35 IP? For whatever reason he's become a 1 half pitcher. Doesn't really make any sense. That's the craziness that is baseball. Which Laroche brother is it that goes from replacement player in the first half to Albert Pujols in the second half? There's just no way to explain it.

We could debate all day who the best 2B in the AL is. I think we can all agree that even if Pedroia foolishly moves over to SS, that in no way shape or form leaves Gordon Beckham as the "premier 2B in the AL," as Quinarvy stated.

So with all the talk about how "horrible" the bullpen was last year, we should trade by far and away our best reliever, and one of the best overall in baseball? No thanks. For a team that's obviously in win-now mode, you don't make a trade to fill one hole while creating another gaping one.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 2, 2009 -> 05:46 AM) Honestly, Ian Kinsler has only had 1 really good season, and it was 2008, and he's just a bit injury prone on top of that. If Pedroia actually moves to SS - which I think is probably similar to moving either Kinsler or Beckham to SS, which would be bad if a gold glove caliber defensive 2Bman weren't brought in or if a gold glove caliber shortstop weren't brought in to allow him to move back to 2B in the later innings (and Vizquel's gone) - then the best 2Bman in the league almost certainly has to go to Brian Roberts or Aaron Hill (if you believe he can reproduce something similar to what he did last season). Well if over 30 homers, stolen bases, doubles and almost 90 RBI from a 2B can be called an off year then you're pretty damn good. Not to mention his glove was well above average. Actually, other than a ridiculously low BABIP (.245), his '09 wasn't that much different than '08. I'd rank Kinsler over Roberts and Hill rather easily.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Dec 2, 2009 -> 02:36 AM) Well, that would make Gordon the AL's premier 2B. Ian Kinsler says hello.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Dec 1, 2009 -> 09:03 PM) That's because his deal wasn't exorbitant, if he were paid fully based on that one huge season he would have gotten significantly more. His 2004 season was one of the best single season performances by a 3B in baseball history and he only got $64M in free agency, Carlos Beltran got $119M that same offseason and just one year later Konerko got $60M. He's been the best defensive 3B in the game over the past 5 seasons, put up very good offensive numbers considering his home ballpark and brought plenty more to the table including his underrated speed and athleticism. You'll have a hard time finding many Mariners fans that will complain about that Adrian Beltre contract. If he were expected to produce every year like he did in '04 then he would have made twice as much. Vidro only spent 2 years in Seattle, his first year he put up a .775 OPS as the full time DH, he was released by August of 2008 due to being one of the worst players in baseball. Don't underrate that Miguel Batista deal either, they gave him $25M over 3 years. He was in the rotation for 1.5 years and didn't manage a sub 1.5 WHIP in any of the 3 seasons in Seattle. I thought I was the only one that thought the Beltre contract was nowhere near as bad as many made it out to be. He's a fine ballplayer.

I know it's easy to say now, but could you imagine if the Rays had taken Posey instead of Beckham in '08? Not to say Beckham won't pan out. But Posey would've filled a gaping hole for them for the next 5-6 years (not to mention he'll probably be the better player). Shoppach blows.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 1, 2009 -> 05:46 PM) Oh, there are plenty... It's quite funny to see Floyd and Fields for Rocco Baldelli as Fathom's "dream trade." fathom and milkman got me rollin' over here. And LMAO@willie. I'm bookmarking this thread.

QUOTE (Ranger @ Dec 1, 2009 -> 05:42 PM) Oh wow, there is some good stuff in there. I love the guy that said Floyd "has an attitude problem." Like he knew that. It makes you wonder how people still say things like "they shoulda gotten more" or "Kenny's got some 'splainin' to do." I'm curious if there is anyone still posting here that made one of these types of comments and how they feel about it now. I mean it's one thing to have a gut feeling that it's not a good trade, but to be so absolutely certain it is a failure is another thing. You would think people would learn their lessons. I stopped playing armchair GM a few years ago. I admit I hated the deal at the time. Although I didn't go crazy like some. I've learned over the years, at least when it comes to trades, that you have to give it time before you can come to any legitimate conclusion.

QUOTE (Ranger @ Dec 1, 2009 -> 04:58 PM) The point was the attitude regarding his departure: he was worthless while he was here, yet when he was traded, those same people thought the Sox should've gotten more for for him in return. It's the overall undervaluing of players while they're here, yet understanding their value after they depart. QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Dec 1, 2009 -> 05:06 PM) Ranger is talking about how people were jumping off of bridges saying that the Sox got ripped off for Garcia. Those past threads have to be pretty comical. I know that there were only a handful of us in support of the Floyd acquisition. I think in the future the Brandon Allen trade will be sort of like this. After Allen was traded there were people on this board saying that Allen was a future All-Star. http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=55750 There's some funny s*** in this thread. . lmao@tizzle, fathom and milkman. I wasn't too crazy about this trade at the time. But those three went postal.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Dec 1, 2009 -> 04:37 PM) "We will spend the money to win." Short memories I think. The issue with money and spending it on our players and other quality signings seems to change to fit whatever circumstance that is raised at the time. Also by not offering Dye and Dotel, who are both Type A Free Agents I believe means we receive no compensation picks. Am I right or wrong? As I said before I hope there is smothing more going on here than meets the eye and the Master Plan from A-Z works out for the best. I guess you can like an individual player(s) a lot, but the bottom line is winning and being competive for a WS. Right? I think taking on Peavy's and Rios' contracts more than proved they'll do just that. And if we offered Dotel/Dye arb we still wouldn't get draft picks because the chances of them declining are about the same as Rosie O'Donnell skipping the second helping.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Dec 1, 2009 -> 01:20 PM) Then we were lied to. All you have to do is go back on previous owner and GM comments about putting money out there on salary spending. Obviously finances are a concern for all teams unless there is collusion amongst team ownership as has been put out there by agents. I am hoping we are working on a new master plan to win Huh? We were lied to? This makes no sense.

QUOTE (Chet Kincaid @ Dec 1, 2009 -> 09:53 AM) Wow... I just read somewhere that Roy Halladay is pretty much on his way to the either the yanks or the red sawks. They'll sign him to a 5 year 100 and something million dollar deal like it's nothing - and we're struggling over paying Dotel SIX million. I can't even imagine what it's like to be a Pirates fan. Is it time for a salary cap in baseball? What do you guys think? Sorry to hijack the thread... this probably should have been posted somewhere else... Link? This is not exactly news. Has something new developed?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 1, 2009 -> 08:15 AM) First of all, I think just because Hahn is very good with the business side of things, that's certainly no guarantee of success in the much more high-profile world and microscope of being an MLB GM. Look at what happened with Dan Evans in LA and how short his tenure was in that position...I would say at the time, there were many or perhaps even more who preferred him over KW. The reason KW has adopted his plans over the last decade are partly due to the traditional White Sox fan base (not supporting rebuilding or even .500 teams)...the competition with the Cubs for the media spotlight...the desire to "entertain" the fans with shows of offensive output/HR's...and his overall lack of patience and desire to "go for it" each and every year. Lots of GM's would be very hesitant to make the Rios move, but KW did it because he has the full faith and confidence of Reinsdorf. But I think 15-20 GM's would never dream of pulling the trigger for fear of that move haunting them in the future and bringing a premature end to their "honeymoon" period. The fact of the matter is that KW and Ozzie hate losing as much, if not more than, most White Sox fans (although some are arguing that Ozzie lost his fire and chip on his shoulder in 2005). That's all you can ask for. As another example, look at Bill Smith in Minnesota. He was a brilliant farm director but has been pretty abysmal as a GM, in terms of the moves that he has made. Now the major league teams have outperformed his GM performance (same thing happened with the Sox in 2008) for two years in a row, but I don't think any Twins fan would possibly argue he's been anything but a shadow of former GM Terry Ryan. Now just because Dan Evans and Bill Smith haven't worked so well...that doesn't mean HAHN will fail as well. But beware of the back-up QB momentum...90% of the time, you miss your first stringer when he's out, and the fans come to realize why he was the first-stringer in the beginning. I think the same will be said of KW and even Ozzie when they're gone and been replaced by others within the Sox organization. We will miss the KW swagger, his attitude reflected by his comments about the Tigers "being in a better position to compete with the Sox" after the Miguel Cabrera move....KW watched Dave Dombrowski (another former Sox front office guy) practically turn that organization into the Titanic in terms of the financial implications of that roster moving into 2010, and he didn't overspend but was careful/cautious, knowing he didn't have the team to win it all yet. I think 2010 and 2011 will be much more significant for the eventual fates of KW and Ozzie than 2008/09 were, both feeling like transition years in turning over the roster. +1@caulfield. Solid post. Couldn't find anything I disagree with. KW has proven he can put together a world championship team. And the WAY he went about doing that was unique. But KW has yet to prove he can put together a consistent winner. And the thing that encourages me the most is he knows it. I think he's slowly but surely putting this team in position to go on an actual run of sustained success.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Nov 30, 2009 -> 09:16 PM) If Crede could return I'd be ecstatic to have that glove and bat back at third. I don't want any part of his bat.

You know it's slow around here when the Hutch award gets its own thread.

QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Nov 30, 2009 -> 04:59 PM) Bard may not be outstanding, but lets not overvalue Alexei either. Generic shortstop defensively. He gives you a very nice amount of offense for the position, but it's not at the level of special. Also since when does Alexei have an attitude? Do people here know him personally? If we're trying to do something silly like interpret his facial expressions ...that's highly contingent on the culture yr from. Don't be fooled by the bonehead errors. Alexei is more than capable of playing an above average SS. Athleticism? Check. Range? Check. Throwing arm? Check.

QUOTE (kev211 @ Nov 30, 2009 -> 02:42 PM) Look at our farm system during 2007, and look at it now. That's not saying a whole lot considering how bad it was in 2007. There was really nowhere to go but up. But KW and Co. recognized this was a major problem and took action. From managerial changes to an obvious change in drafting philosophy. It's still going to take a few years to recover from the putrid drafts of 2000-2006.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Nov 30, 2009 -> 01:43 PM) That is the thing, ERA and SV % are probably the least of my concern in terms of relief stats. The opponents BAAVG, Bullpen ERA+, WHIP, Inherted Runners Scored all are to me what is most important. If you do good at those things, the other stats will almost surely follow. The Sox were poor in all of the key relief indicators. The best stat they had was the inherited Runners stat and being 17th in baseball is not acceptable. If you plan on being a playoff team, you better have a good bullpen. Having a middle of the pack pen is unacceptable. Adjust for the 2nd half splits and you'd see the Sox pen was in no way acceptable. I don't think northside, or anybody else for that matter, is saying last year's performance was acceptable. But we didn't have the worst bullpen ever either. There were some good and bad (more bad). Point is to go out and try to 'fix' the bullpen every year when it's easily the most volatile position in the game might not be the best course of action. Especially for a team with a limited amount of money to spend and far more pressing concerns. We have on paper arguably the best rotation in the league. 6-7 innings minimum from our starters should be the norm. Making things A LOT easier for the bullpen (think 2005). Our best bet simply might be to hope Linebrink/Jenks bounce back, Pena pitches to his ability (2007), and at least one of our top minor league arms can surprise.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Nov 30, 2009 -> 01:10 PM) I'll show again how this is not the case. Results-wise, as a pen, they were mid-road in ERA, and mid-road in save %. So as a group, looking at how many earned runs they gave up and how many leads they blew, which is what matter most here, they were average: ERA: 4.06 (8th in AL, 18th in MLB) SV%: 67% (7th in AL, 12th in MLB) WHIP and AvgA are great for looking at individual relievers, because you need to get rid of the effect of other pitchers. They are also not as good at taking team defense out of the picture, which we want to do here, to do an independent audit. But here, talking about the whole pen, results is what matters. And their results were not bad, though also not particularly good - and that in a year when, as I said, the majority of the pen was pitching below what their careers would dictate they'd normally do. To me, that indicates the pen is likely to be at least average again, even with no changes. But of course, bullpens are finicky things, which is yet another reason to not invest tons of money in it, as opposed to areas where positive impact can be more readily assumed. The only other key number I'd want to look at that I can't readily find is inherited runners scored. That is less of a factor than the two stats I gave, but still a good overall measure - so I'd be curious to see that, if anyone has it. IIRC, the Sox' bullpen FIP (fielding independent pitching) was 3.92. That was the 6th lowest in all of baseball. So that suggests with a little better team defense (we were arguably the worst defensive team in 2009) our overall bullpen ERA would've been considerably lower. The bullpen LOB% was 74.3. Good for 11th in all of baseball. Overall, I'd say the bullpen was slightly below average. Nothing like the disaster that was 2007. But I agree with you. I've had it with relievers and their volatility. People that are suggesting we go out and spend legitimate change to upgrade the bullpen are the same ones that are criticizing the team for overpaying for Linebrink/Dotel. I'm content going into 2010 with Bobby (assuming we don't trade him), Linebrink, Thornton, D.J., Pena and some combination of Hudson, Nunez, Link or Santeliz. If we can get a guy like Saito for cheap, I'm all for it. But whatever financial flexibility we have left should go into upgrading the OF/DH.

I'm with TRU. Golf and bowling are definitely not sports.

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Nov 29, 2009 -> 04:53 PM) Seriously. You think the last one was on Cutler. Maybe he can see into the future where his receiver gets a ball thrown right at him, gets raped by the guy behind him, and then pops the ball straight up. I forget. Cutler has the automatic return mechanism on his throws. The first one was Cutler. He underthrew it. The last one. Come on. Fair enough. Like I said, I'm watching the game from the link Knight put up. And I don't know if it's my computer but the quality blows. I saw all the contact. The ball looked like it was underthrown. Either way, this team sucks.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Nov 29, 2009 -> 04:46 PM) Bennett letting it bounce off his arms? First one all Cutler. Second one, again, on the Recievers. Was it Bennett or Knox? I'm watching the game from the link Knight put up earlier. Not the best quality. That ball looked terribly underthrown to me.