BobDylan

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jun 21, 2008 -> 04:54 PM) Thome isn't going to get enough AB's this year for the option to kick in. Sooner or later he'll be on the DL again, plus the interleague play cuts those AB's down a ton. Even with CF and 2B open, it is very reasonable IMO to see the Sox making some huge moves there. If Crede signs elsewhere the long-rumored favorite has been LAA. If they pick him up at third that means Figgins will likely be on the block. Roberts will be on the block also, but he'll be cheaper than he is now (if he doesn't get moved before the deadline this year) because he'll only have one season left. Orlando Hudson is a FA, as is Mark Ellis, both great options as #2 hitters and both superb defensive 2B's capable of playing the fundamental game. Then as for CF you've got Willy Taveras who should be available for less than before. He could be a steal. Then if the Angels pick up a 3B, Figgins is a CF option. If not, Willits is a CF option who should be open for a trade. Randy Winn has been producing for a while and with his contract would be a cheap, productive pick up (in terms of talent). Those are all leadoff/#2 hitters. So let's say you end up with at least one of Thome/Dye/Konerko gone, which is highly likely IMO. If you pick up any combination of the players above, as 2B's and CF's, you immediately change the dynamic of the team at the top of the order, and as a result it shifts AJ, who as a contact hitter, back to the middle of the lineup to break up the usually all-or-nothing sluggers. It also moves Alexei down to #9 and gives us that speed/contact guy that can act as a 2nd leadoff hitter which managers love. Willy Tavares isn't an upgrade over what they already have in Jerry Owens. No use trading for him, I'd say. If the Angels got Crede, it won't be in a trade unless the White Sox give them a window to resign him. That said, Crede won't be enough to get Figgins. And even if the Angels do fill 3B, I'm sure they'll consider the option of moving Figgins to 2B before outright giving the job to Kendrick/Aybar. Plus, who are the Sox going to offer? Broadway? Russel? Haeger? Owens? Anderson? Their minor league system is a can of soup with no chicken. And KW will hang up the phone if they mention any of Danks, Floyd or Quentin. As far as Figgins being a CF option, he's not. He's barely a LF option. He's also barely average for 3B. He's got a noodle arm, to boot. I understand that filling CF and/or 2B with the proper player changes the dynamic of the offense. But Chone Figgins is a pipe dream. Brian Roberts probably is too.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jun 21, 2008 -> 05:49 PM) Anderson's a fourth OFer and the best one we have. Why are some you so mad at him? He plays great defense and hits .230, is that bad for a 4th OFer? Would you rather have Rob Mackowiak misjudge balls in Center all day? Would Jerry Owens be any better? Think of your other options here. Now, if we got Kenny Lofton, Anderson's the first one to go (Uribe's proven himself worthy lately). But as of now, with all the assets in the organization, Anderson deserves to be on this team. Jerry Owens might not be a bad idea. By the way, anyone know the status on him? Is he still hurt? I'm actually confused why they brought in Dewayne Wise when Konerko went to the DL if they could have brought up Owens. Could the Sox live with him as the every day CF in the 9 spot? Maybe move Swisher over to 1B and platoon Konerko and Thome at DH (damn, that's an expensive platoon... and at DH, haha) and guarantee that Thome isn't back next year? I'm just trying to think outside the box here.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jun 21, 2008 -> 05:38 PM) He had a bad day throwing the fork ball and when that happens, he's bad. Let's not forget that it's Wrigley Field and the wind was blowing out. Even Dewayne Wise hit a homer. But Dewayne Wise is the new 4th OFer for the White Sox. Didn't you hear? I'm for trading Contreras, but I'm also for trading for Brian Roberts and making a run at it. I just don't want them to make some half assed move like trade for CoCo Crisp and limp into the playoffs with the same s*** offense we have right now and a band-aid. We've seen the Sox try that many times. Either go into buy mode or go into sell mode. Nothing inbetween.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jun 21, 2008 -> 05:37 PM) I'd like DeJesus (who wouldn't? He's a good player) but I don't think the Royals are serious about moving him. Grudz is always a nice fit but I think the Sox are either going to go in-house or will make a play at a younger player in his prime, like Mark Ellis or Hudson, or try to put together a package for Roberts or Figgins. I don't think they have the means to land Roberts or Figgins. I especially don't see why Anaheim would want to trade Figgins now that they saw how average their offense is without him in the lineup (he was on the DL.) Baltimore is run by a bunch of morons, so there might be reason for hope there... but I still don't think the Sox can put together an attractive enough package to land him. Especially if other teams are asking about him.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jun 21, 2008 -> 05:30 PM) I think there's a good chance Thome is gone after this year, so that's something like $12 million off the books. And let's say the Sox can work out an extension for Crede, or can sign him on the market. If he gets a raise around $7-8 million or so, then the Sox could bring up Fields to DH, or they could try experiments at 1B or LF (I still think Josh can learn LF if the Sox commit to it and are patient enough with him). This opens the door to a possible Konerko/Dye deal, which would cut some more money off the books. Contreras is probably gone after this year if he can put up an ERA under 5.00, so that's another $10 million off the books. I think Cabrera is getting something like $9 million and he'll walk, with Alexei sliding over to SS and Richar/Getz probably taking over at first. Subtract $4.5 million for Uribe and that's more money coming off the payroll. Toby's option should be picked up but Ozuna could be gone, so that's another $1 million gone if that happens. A team of... C Pierzynski 1B Swisher 2B Richar/Getz 3B Crede DH Fields LF Dye CF Anderson RF Quentin Vazquez-Buehrle-Floyd-Danks-Broadway Jenks-Linebrink-Thornton-Dotel-Logan-Masset-Russel Hall-Richar/Getz-league minimum back up CF-league minimum back up SS ...is not all that expensive. There's enough left over money to go after a couple big name players on the FA market or take on salary in a trade. *Edit: Also, the $100 million dollar mark doesn't mean a whole lot these days with all the inflation. The Sox should be prepared to spend $110 million plus if they want to seriously contend. Well, out of the "big three" in the order, Thome is the only one the Sox can control coming back next year. To do that, they'll have to limit his AB's. Konerko has a full no trade clause now with his 10 and 5 rights. Dye has a full NTC this season as well as the option to decline a trade to 6 teams next year. I wouldn't want to resign Crede, personally, because I don't think he's a very good hitter. As well, Scott Boras won't let us resign him. They'll save very little by losing Crede. And won't save at all because Konerko will still be here. Fields at 3B is fine with me. Alexei is likely the SS next year. Richar the 2B... agree on those two. Konerko will be at 1B next year. The outfield will probably be Quentin LF/Swisher CF/Dye RF. AJ remains the catcher. The line-up Kenny is looking at next year is more along the lines of this (not in order): 1B - Konerko 2B- Richar/Getz/Alexei/Upgrade via trade or FA SS - Alexei/very limited possibility of Uribe/Upgrade via trade or FA 3B - Fields LF - Quentin CF - Swisher RF - Dye C - AJ DH - Thome/??? There really isn't a lot of room to make changes given the way Kenny did the contracts with Dye and Konerko. Maybe next year they can DH Dye or Konerko, but that still really only leaves the same two gaps there are on the map today: CF and 2B.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jun 21, 2008 -> 05:07 PM) If injuries continue to be a factor and the Sox want someone better offensively than BA, the answer isn't going to be Dewayne Wise. Kenny will have to bring in someone via trade or FA. Randy Winn and Willy Taveras could be options, although hopefully KW doesn't feel he needs to go that route because the availability of Coco Crisp scares me. I wonder what the availability for David DeJesus from KC is. I can't comment on his fielding (anyone know if he is good out in CF?) but he has a career line of .284/.358/.420/.778. Might be a decent stopgap to put in the #2 hole and allow the team to push AJ back down in the line-up where he belongs. Or even Mark Grudzielanek at 2B from KC. .290/.332/.395/.727 career line. He's your prototypical 2 hitter with enough experience to bat first. (Would KC want to deal within the division? The Sox too?) Other than that, it gets pretty thin. Mark Ellis? Or the dreamers: Brian Roberts, Ichiro.

QUOTE (Whitewashed in '05 @ Jun 21, 2008 -> 03:03 PM) No 1 our ballpark is built for the home runs so we better be able to hit home runs. Our lineup is made for hitting home runs and that's it. KW has been good at putting together some lineups afforably so in order to get more balance and more than just 1 dimensional guys its going to cost us. The farm or money, we already don't have a farm. We can't trade for CQ's every season. I agree with what you're saying and this is the position were in right now. I don't know that the Sox have an affordable line-up anymore. There is defferred money in there, yeah, but they're around the 100 mil mark. Also, I don't think when he says a balanced line-up he means 9 Carlos Beltran's. I think he's talking about hitters that can play situational baseball to support the middle order guys that they can afford. Like a Kevin Youkilis, or one they already have but is struggling, Nick Swisher.

QUOTE (whitesoxbrian @ Jun 21, 2008 -> 03:50 PM) So what you're saying is that if somebody who doesn't get claimed when on waivers makes a big league club and hits .280, the guy with more career ABs should play because of the fact that he has more ABs. If Dewayne Wise could hit .280, I'd be all for having him on the bench. But he can't.

QUOTE (Flash Tizzle @ Jun 21, 2008 -> 03:25 PM) I honestly believe Cabrera's ball was a home run as well, but I wouldn't use it as an excuse. We had other opportunities. Absolutely, but it still pisses me off. After Dotel's lapse, the Cubs would see Jenks in the 9th, not Linebrink. And I'd feel a lot better about today if they won yesterday.

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jun 21, 2008 -> 04:30 PM) Because it's NOT a World Series, and I have a hard time calling it a crucial series when we're playing a team in a different league. I think, for the mentality of the ballclub and the way other teams around the league see the Sox, it is a crucial series. This was a great chance to make a statement around the league. Instead, they fell right on their ass and continue to surrender a 6.5 first place lead. They're now 8-12 against plus .500 teams. I thought it would have been great to roll through Detroit, Colorado and Pittsburgh before this series to lessen the blow if they f***ed up, but they didn't. Now they look kind of silly, honestly. They certainly don't look like a playoff team. If not for an exceptionally weak AL Central this season, they wouldn't be in first place.

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Jun 21, 2008 -> 02:11 PM) I had my sister-in-law call up with my nephews singing that song 5 minutes ago. I told them that I was at a world series game and watched a winner. Tell her kids to get a shovel to go to the cemetary to dig up someone who can say the same on the north side. Owned.

QUOTE (joesaiditstrue @ Jun 21, 2008 -> 02:59 PM) Left-handed bat, and a much needed speed-guy in the lineup. Yeah, he can be better. Just watching his at bats since he's been called up, he just looks like he knows wtf he's doing. He has a plan when he steps into the box. BA looks absolutely mystified every single time Look, if you want to be realistic about replacing BA on the bench, be realistic about the options. Dewayne Wise took a walk and hit a homer. Now he's a productive MLB bench player? There's a reason he's been shuffled around the league and never been given not only a chance at a starting spot, but a long term bench spot. If you want a left handed speedster, he's in the minor leagues and his name is Jerry Owens. BA looks terrible at the plate, fine. But he has room to grow. He's younger and he's still raw. I'm not saying he'll ever find that growth, but the potential is there. And for some reason you don't think he's an upper echelon defender, and that's fine, but it's only because you're blind to it. If the Sox replace BA on the bench, I'm okay with it, but it had better not be with Dewayne Wise. He is not a good Major League baseball player.

QUOTE (whitesoxbrian @ Jun 21, 2008 -> 02:50 PM) I don't care how old and how many ABs Wise has had as a major leaguer, the bottom line is, he can't be any worse then Anderson. Buuuuut, can he be any better? There's nothing in his history that says so. Even BA can hit a home run every once and awhile.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jun 21, 2008 -> 01:04 PM) I know it's been only 3 starts, but I still feel we should trade Contreras while he still has value. While he pitched great for most of the 1st half so far, I still don't see anything special with him. I think taking a chance with Broadway/Massett in the rotation would be worth selling high on Contreras. I think the Sox should evaluate the team on whether or not they think they can do any damage in the playoffs. With the way the AL Central looks this year, there is still a major possibility they can win the division and sneak into the playoffs. However, do they want to go in with Joe Crede, Jose Contreras and Orlando Cabrera knowing they won't get very far? Or do they want to talk to other GM's and see what type of value they can get for these players and try to put the team in a better position to win the division next year or two years from now? I'm for trading for the value. I don't think the White Sox are on the level of Boston or Anaheim or even Tampa Bay, Oakland or NYY. I wonder if they'd win a game in the post season. That said, I'm not sure if Crede or Cabrera will net the Sox any compensation picks in the draft (I think Cabrera does, but not Crede?), but I'd rather start building for the future with Fields at 3B, Alexei at SS, Richar at 2B, Anderson in CF and see what they can do (and let them build), and figure out how to get rid of and replace Dye, Konerko and Thome in the next few years.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Jun 21, 2008 -> 03:30 PM) If these are the quality of posts I'm going to see then I guess I'll just log off Soxtalk for a little while until everybody gets all this bulls*** out of their system. My name is Bob, I'm an alcoholic.

QUOTE (joesaiditstrue @ Jun 21, 2008 -> 03:31 PM) Probably the best defensive center fielder in the GAME TODAY? I stopped reading your post after this. I'm heartbroken.

QUOTE (joesaiditstrue @ Jun 21, 2008 -> 03:16 PM) I don't really see any reason to send Wise back down over Brian after Paulie comes back, can anyone else think of one? Besides the cliche' "Brian has nothing left to prove in AAA." Brian Anderson is probably the best defensive center fielder in the game today, is one. Dewayne Wise was born in 1978 and has a career 353 at bats, is two. In the past three years, Dewayne Wise's batting average against RHP is .205 (lower than Anderson), is three. Dewayne Wise's career OBP is .241, is four. If you averaged his career numbers out to predict what he might do in a full year, it'd look like this: 298 AB, 41 R, 8 HR, 29 RBI, 14 BB, 48 SO, 11 SB, .201 BA, .241 OBP, .363 SLG, .604 OPS... is five. Do I have to keep going?

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Jun 21, 2008 -> 12:23 PM) It wasn't a home run, it's a really poor angle they have. I rewatched the normal angle and slowed it down, and it didn't hit near it. And you could see on that replay they showed that it didn't hit the foul pole anywhere. If it was even close, don't you think there would have been any sort of argument? Whole Sox bench has the same angle. It certainly didn't hit the post behind it. If it didn't hit that, what did it hit? Also, Hawk and DJ seem to now agree that it hit the pole.

QUOTE (Vance Law @ Jun 21, 2008 -> 11:56 AM) Nope. The Sox are #5 in batting average with runners on, and #2 with runners in scoring position. Fans simply immediately forget anything that goes well and dwell on anything that doesn't go well. Start thread after thread after thread to complain about a first place team with the 3rd best offense and the best pitching in the American League. If you're going to post and complain about the team hitting .289 with runners in scoring position because, "that's totally, like, failing 71% of the time," take a moment to note that the major league average is .262 with runners in scoring position. That's a totally misleading stat. The White Sox rank 13/14 in the AL in sacrifice hits with a mere 11. They are 10/14 with 17 sacrifice flies. There is a lot more to hitting with RISP, it is certainly not a batting average stat. The Sox suck with RISP, plan and simple.

I still don't understand why nobody has acknowledged that Cabrera's foul ball was a home run. People here are ignoring it. The media is ignoring it. The White Sox are ignoring it. They should have a 5-4 lead after Aramis' home run.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Jun 21, 2008 -> 02:19 AM) Well as far as individual performances go, Dotel immediately giving up back to back homers in like 5 pitches to lose the lead is pretty glaring. But it shouldn't have even come to that, the Sox had multiple opportunities to pull away from the Cubs and failed almost every time. Perhaps, but a bullpen is going to fail from time to time. Sucks it had to happen today, but the offense did little to take the pressure off the staff. Like I said in the chat once, Ozzie should put the pitching staff out on the field and let the hitters pitch so they know what it feels like. (Not seriously.)

QUOTE (lostfan @ Jun 21, 2008 -> 02:05 AM) Honestly I am dumbfounded that some of you guys are trying to put unnecessary blame on Anderson here though, or otherwise harping on it and ignoring the fact that the next 3 batters simply failed to execute and made it all irrelevant. Would it have even mattered if he got to 3rd? What happened on the next 3 at-bats? Thome pops out, OC flies out but not deep enough for a tag-up, AJ strikes out. Inning over. How is a leadoff double somehow substandard? You can split hairs all you want about semantics but he is still standing there in scoring position, and he is coming around on the next base hit, if there is one (which there is not). All of you guys know good and well that if he HAD run around to 3rd and gotten tagged out, you'd be ready to summarily execute him on the field, just like you were the last time he tried to advance to 3rd. Anyone that places the blame on Anderson just wants an excuse. There is a golden rule in baseball: don't make the first or third out at third base. Whether he would have got to 3rd standing up is moot -- nobody here can prove it. Besides that, like you mentioned, the three hitters behind him failed miserably at doing their job. "Get 'em over, get 'em in." Thome's AB was especially pathetic. A 1 pitch pop out to short left field from a hitter that teams put the right field shift on to? Cabrera's ball was not deep enough, as well, like you said. I do believe, though, he might've taken a different approach if Thome did his job in moving Anderson over. Execution, my friends, is the reason the White Sox lost that game. Not because of the bullpen, not because of Brian Anderson, not because they took Danks out. Execution. 16 total runners left on base, 8 with 2 out and RISP. When a team leaves 16 on base and only scores 3 runs, a debatable baserunning mistake is not where to point your finger.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 21, 2008 -> 12:50 AM) Cmon people who were at the game. Give us a feel for it. Fights? Smell? Were Sox fans mocked when the unthinkable happened in the ninth? Does the park suck? Hot chicks there? What was up today?? From my experiences, the "interesting" stuff happens at the Cell. Of all the Sox-Cubs games I've been to at Wrigley, it's generally pretty tame aside from drunken yelling that nobody in the right mind pays attention to. But at the Sox-Cubs game on the Southside, I've seen plenty of fights. I guess your "typical" Southsider has a low tolerance for drunken ignorance -- as it should be.

Here is a video: Cabrera Homer -- Fair or Foul? (I don't know how to embed .swf files, so I apologize you have to go through the link. And unfortunately, it's not HD quality.) Pay special attention to the second half of the video, the replay portion. Watch the ball. If it were to hit anything behind the foul pole, especially that wooden beam behind it, the ball would disappear behind the pole for a moment, then reappear. The ball does not disappear at all. Here are several images, in sequence. (I highlighted the ball in red boxes because the ball is difficult to find. And now that I look at it, the red boxes I made are a little hard to find, hah.) And as you can see, the ball changes direction through those images. --------------------------- In the first half of the video, I have less evident pictures where it was difficult to find the baseball, but one of which is connecting off of the foul pole. The first image the ball is right on the pole. The second image, the ball has bounced off the pole.

Actually, Sox fans, the ball hit the foul pole. I cut and cropped the video to see just the select play and so I could slow it down to watch it frame by frame. The ball bounces off the foul pole, not the wooden post behind it. I'll post all the evidence in a moment.