fathom

QUOTE (Brian @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 11:20 PM) I haven't gotten to see Jake a lot this year, but has he thrown the slider consistently at all this year? Or at least not as much as we thought he would. He's thrown it, it's just been awful. Never seen a pitcher go from having a plus-plus pitch to having a below average pitch.

QUOTE (Heads22 @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 11:11 PM) Jake with an F that inning, looked pretty decent. He did, I'm already liking Castro more behind the plate than AJP. Still yet to see the good Peavy slider tonight, but he has more of a swagger it seems.

I don't like him, but it's so refreshing hearing Kevin Millar tell stories about Major League players that are still active when he's announcing. It's a lot more interesting hearing how Mark Kotsay was the most accurate outfield arm he's played with rather than hear how great Jim Rice was defensively.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 10:44 PM) Could you imagine if Tampa had taken Posey instead of Beckham? My god. Or taken Alvarez to put him at 1B when Pena leaves?

QUOTE (WCSox @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 08:26 PM) That said, one could also argue that Walker didn't have a talented rookie young hitter work with until Beckham last year. So, again, it's an apples-and-oranges comparison. Then again, I'm not blaming the Sox's lack of offense on Walker, so that straw man doesn't apply to me. Josh Fields was pretty damn talented.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 08:45 PM) Oh, I know we can get a glimpse of the "philosophy" and concepts the coaches teach. One thing that frustrates me about our hitters is that they do not seem to approach at bats with a specific purpose in mind. For instance, we constantly roll over into double plays when we need to go the other way with the ball. Or during AJs at bat yesterday in the 6th or 7th inning, Kotsay walks on 4 pitches, Quentin draws a 2-1 count then gets plunked in the rear-end. What does AJ do? Swings first pitch and grounds into a double play instead of taking a pitch or two. Then Alexei draws a 4-pitch walk. I mean, come on, go up there knowing what the plan is and execute it. And yet, we seem to just swing freely at everything in every situation. But I honestly don't know enough about what it is to pitch or hit in the major leagues to know whether there is a plan that is trying to be executed and the players are just failing, or if these things are being worked on and the players are just not showing progrss...I just don't know. So it's difficult to criticize. Whatever Walker is preaching, it's obviously not working. I've probably said this a million times on this board, but even if he is the world's greatest hitting coach, he needs to be fired. They need to get another voice in here to hopefully help these guys before giving up on them (ie: Quentin). The approach is awful, I give you that. As for that AJP at bat yesterday, the one thing with Masterson is you have to make him get the ball up. With his sinker, AJP swinging at a low pitch will result in a double play probably 75% of the time. What does AJP do? Swings at a low, outside sinker. It was a good swing by AJP and he didn't try to pull it, but you're not going to do anything with that pitch.

So this is an honest question and felt it would be better off in this thread than on the Sox part of this board: do you think that if Ozzie got fired in the next few weeks, would critics use that to show that JR isn't loyal? I could just imagine the headlines "Disloyal JR fires World Series winning manager".

Don't let D. Wade find out that Pete Meyers stayed on with a new coach. BTW, Kevin Ollie is supposedly heading to UCONN.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 08:37 PM) I simply don't think many here (if any of us at all) have the knowledge to really have an opinion on whether our coaches are teaching the mechanics the way they should or not. Criticize the managerial style and strategy of Ozzie all you want. But I think we get into really muddy waters when we start going after the pitching and hitting coaches. Especoally considering we get absolutely no exposure to the teaching and side work that occurs on a daily basis. Cooper clearly stresses throwing with less velocity in order to gain more control and hopefully relieve stress on your elbow. Masset, Contreras, and Aardsma have all mentioned this in the past few years.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 07:32 PM) There's no anger at all from my end. I would give El Duque the credit for Contreras more than Cooper. Contreras was so thrilled when the Colorado pitching coach made some adjustments and he was throwing 95 again. Jose actually has better numbers than Sergio Santos so far this season. Floyd has been wildly inconsistent. His ERA was nearly what it is right now a year ago, then he went on a tear, then he sucked again. He also was a top 5 pick in the draft, and I do agree you still have to develop them, but its not like his talent came out of nowhere. Cooper's transformation of Thornton should keep him on the Thornton family Christmas card and bonus list for the rest of his life. To give Cooper credit for Freddy is laughable, but if you must then you have to say Peavy and Floyd and Buehrle in 2010 is his fault. (I don't think it is BTW) I'm not saying Cooper is a bad pitching coach or even mediocre. I just don't think he walks on water like some believe. The Cooper shine has completely worn off. As you said, his philosophy of throwing a little slower in order to gain control has been shown to not work for everyone. He's going to take a lot of heat if we continue to have a bottom 5 starting rotation that makes a gazillion dollars a year.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 07:01 PM) He's posted an OPS of .955 against LHP this season. That's better than I thought he's done, but Gomes has demolished lefties this season. Also, why couldn't Gomes/Jones split the 4th OF and DH position?

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 06:42 PM) Reasonable minds can disagree. It doesn't make sense to me to have a righty/lefty platoon where the righty hitter doesn't excel against LHP.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 05:36 PM) Andruw Jones is filling the same role and Gomes would have. I'll take Gomes over Jones any day

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 06:29 PM) He's always extremely streaky though. But at least when he's on a hot streak, he can do a ton of damage. That's unlike some people on our team...aka Omar Vizquel!

Brentz would be a very good pick, but it just seems so likely that the Sox will take a college starting pitcher.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 05:17 PM) Gomes is making less than Vizquel, actually. And he makes roughtly half of what Kotsay does. But I believe he was given easy incentives to reach. Love J. Gomes, fantastic energy player with some good skills.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 04:50 PM) BTW, Ozzie is not "giving Kotsay and Vizquel all those ABs" because those are the players that Ozzie wants. Those are the players that Kenny could afford this year whose skills happen to reflect the type of player that Ozzie likes. Otherwise, he'd be giving those at-bats to Damon or Matsui. I totally disagree with this. Ozzie and KW went out and got these players...they were two of the first signees in all of baseball this offseason. KW didn't wait until the last month of the offseason to sign these guys like what happens with a lot of washed-up veterans. Guys like J. Gomes are making about 300k more than Kotsay or Vizquel is.

Jason Heyward with a tough night

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 04:45 AM) This team won 3 games in a row once this season when they swept Seattle. Its a bad team. KW had an awful offseason. 2 straight AWFUL offseasons. The Swisher trade to the Yankees was awful, and the Javy trade to the Braves has the potential to be a huge miss.

Not a chance in hell the Yanks or Red Sox would take Peavy.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 03:09 AM) Really? Even Pinella? Oh yeah, he's getting ripped to shreds by the media and Cubs fans right now. He had a lineup the other day with 4 starters out of it for no reason at all. His use/non-use of Colvin has really pissed off Cubs fans as well.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 03:05 AM) Hawk crying about the umpire. Yeah Hawk the team just can't get over the hump and get themselves a 2 or 3 game winning streak. Great team KW. Once the Blackhawks season is over, and before the LeBron stuff really blows up, you'll start hearing more criticism about the Sox in the media. Wouldn't shock me if both Chicago managers get fired.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 02:57 AM) 4-19 this year on the game after the win. lost 14 of our last 15 as well

QUOTE (TitoMB @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 03:53 AM) Lol, 10-1 Good, the more embarrassing, the better

Any attendance figures from tonight?